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Adam Curry: Casting 2.0 for
March 15 2024, episode 171

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misaligned expectations always
Friday once again Hello

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everybody. Welcome to podcasting
2.0 This is where we take us

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through a nice luxury stroll of
everything that's going on in

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podcasting, the past, the
present the future, that now you

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are welcome in the boardroom,
the only boardroom that treats

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stakeholders like the royalty
that they are. I'm Adam curry

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here in the heart of the Texas
Hill Country and in Alabama, the

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man who eats popcorn to carve up
before every big life moment.

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Say hello to the one and only
podsafe my friend on the other

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end Dave Jones.

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Dave Jones: I don't know about
every life moment. Yeah,

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Adam Curry: no, no, no. Melissa,
Melissa told me Melissa told me

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all about it. Every life moment.
Dave's hold hold on, baby. Hold

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on, baby. I gotta I gotta get
some popcorn. Gotta get ready.

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Hold on meat meat. The beef
milkshake. Hold on, baby. Hold

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on. I'll be right there

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Dave Jones: in hand, as we
speak. The milkshake. Milkshake.

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You got to balance your, your
macros. Yeah, carbs and your

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protein and all this stuff.
Well, you can go all carbs are

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all protein.

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Adam Curry: It's been a very,
very rough day for me.

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Dave Jones: I can hear it in
your voice. Yes, because I could

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hear it as soon as I got on the
stream.

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Adam Curry: So not only has the
new media show turned into the

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AI, videos, podcasting show, oh,

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Unknown: a week in AI this week,
this week

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Adam Curry: this week in AI and
YouTube is a podcast. Come on,

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guys, as they get carried away.
They get carried away.

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Dave Jones: That wouldn't. I'm
shocked that that Todd and

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Robert get carried away about
something.

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Adam Curry: And they're not
fighting. Hey, bring back the

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fights. Yeah,

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Dave Jones: that's it. That's
the best flame in each other.

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This

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Adam Curry: is no good. We need
more flaming. Come on, dudes.

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Come on. And then there was no
no partners weekly review. Oh,

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really? I love you. Really,
less. I never really listened to

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be honest about it. I'm so
blase.

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Dave Jones: I'm gonna I'm gonna
Fess up. I have not listened to

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last week's but news weekly. Oh,
goodness. And I'm so behind on

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podcasts. It's like, I mean, I
kind of gave up,

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Adam Curry: you're gonna, you're
gonna have to do a clearing of

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the cache. As

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Dave Jones: it's it's so bad.
It's a purge. It's so bad. My

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cast Matic is like, it's boys
overload. There's cracks forming

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on the side. It's not some
point. You just gotta like, you

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know, it's kinda like your
inbox, whether you have several

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100 unread emails or not, you
hit your control a delete,

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Adam Curry: because it's good.
Because if someone really needs

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something to get back to you.
Well, I

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Dave Jones: mean, like you said
before, I mean with with new

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media show. I know they'll just
talk about the same thing next

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week. So don't have to worry
about if I miss a show. Let's

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take the shape show over.

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Adam Curry: Let's catch up on
the latest in AI. And actually,

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you know, Todd had when he first
started doing that, he talked

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about this some podcast, was it
it's a marketing podcast about

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using AI and marketing. I'm
like, oh, okay, I'll subscribe

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to that machine. Pick a phone
what it's called. And yeah, so

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now I have a whole bunch of
these shows like yeah I can't

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handle too much

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Dave Jones: putting drip Scott
said last week he claimed

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podcast bankruptcy and just
deleted it.

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Adam Curry: I liked it. You got
to do it. You got to do it. Man.

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I wonder what the what is the
name of that show? I can't

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remember now. But it's one of
those like, you know, the the

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it's the marketing AI show and
it keeps popping up and like,

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Nah, not today Satan and then
like I have I have to start

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unsubscribing from stuff I
really do

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Dave Jones: is the media
roundtable was oh, no,

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Adam Curry: no. And I haven't
heard the latest media

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roundtable and although it's
always unclear, I only want to

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listen to it when when when
James is on I want to listen to

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and I just want to hear when
James and otherwise if it's a

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real roundtable so often it's
like, it's like a psych No, it's

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just me with some other dude,
some some professor of

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podcasting. It's like now

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Dave Jones: and I have to admit,
I look at the titles of that

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show. And swipe right a lot of
times I'm like, delete. I'm like

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I can't I can't I'm like can't
handle you today.

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Adam Curry: I know. I learned I
learned an interesting thing.

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This week. I know agenda. I
promoted different modern

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podcast app every every show.
I'm now rotating so everyone

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gets some love. And I think
because you said cast thematic

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so it did cast thematic the
previous week. And then, you

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know, like, I get an email from
DeVore AK go, he likes, if

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something doesn't work, he'll
forward it to me. It's like it's

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broken. Like tech, like tech
was, yeah, of course, anything

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to do with publishing the show
or anything. And this is one of

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the apps you promoted. And it's
some guy, you know, saying, Hey,

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I got no, I got the podcast app,
as you told me. But he literally

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had something called podcast
app.

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Unknown: Anything you ever
recommend? Well,

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Adam Curry: I say podcast
apps.com, where you can find the

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modern podcast app. So I thought
podcast apps.com Would be great

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URL, but it's somehow driven
people to get the podcast app.

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And I don't know what it is. But
it had ads all over it. It had

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ads all over it. Like doesn't
work. It didn't get anything you

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know, it's not updated. didn't
update within 90 seconds. Like

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you promise curry. Now,

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Dave Jones: what are those
podcast?

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Adam Curry: I deleted all the
mail. So I was so fresh. Oh,

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podcast dot app. Oh, what? Oh,
let me see.

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Dave Jones: podcast app is for
the curious. The number one most

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downloaded podcast app. No, I
bet only because it's called

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podcasts.

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Adam Curry: Let me see what it
looks like. Well, it wasn't it

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wasn't it wasn't a wasn't
working. Because you know, the

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one of the features I say is,
hey, these monitor podcast apps,

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the update within 90 seconds of
me posting.

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Dave Jones: And he said, I've
downloaded the app and your show

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is not there yet. Yeah.

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Adam Curry: Yeah, it's no good.
And then. And then John Ford

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said to me, one of the apps you
promoted is broken.

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Dave Jones: This is not that I'm
blaming, you know,

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Adam Curry: this is how people
think that's some some work. But

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just learning podcast app. I'm

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Dave Jones: trying to make sure
that I'm wondering if if they

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might be on the Apps page? No,

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Adam Curry: I don't think so.
Now I was looking at. And I've

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also been promoted podcasting.
to.org. And I went there the

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other day. And so I just went
there kind of objectively, it's

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like, Okay, now let's just say
I'm a dude listening to no

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agenda, Adam says podcasting, I
want to learn about this. And it

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says, for audiences enjoy
Richard listening and viewing

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experiences, podcasts and 2.0,
as you follow, engage, engage

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with support and share podcasts
more easily. And then it says,

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find a better app. And then it
just gives me a whole list. It

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doesn't tell me. I mean, yeah,
if you click on something, it

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shows me all the features. But
it's not. It's not telling me

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what all these great apps do.
And I know this is open source.

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So I would, I would hope that
someone writes a marketing there

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that says, Here are the features
that these apps do. They're here

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they are listed, you can check
out which one of the features

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they support. But it doesn't say
any of that.

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Dave Jones: Or audiences find a
better app. The icons are pretty

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beautiful.

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Adam Curry: And, and you know,
Sam Sathi managed to get listed

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first, I knew he would do that.
He's very smart.

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Dave Jones: He knows
alphabetical sort of starts with

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T know,

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Adam Curry: it's by number of
features supported, which is

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which is actually an interesting
way to do it. I'm cool. It's

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just yeah. There's nothing that
tells me as a as someone who's

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new, okay, an alternative
enclosure, booster grabbed it

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doesn't tell me what that is.

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Dave Jones: Cool to have, like
us, like a description. Well, if

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you can, like, you know, once
you click

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Adam Curry: on it, it goes to
basically the namespace

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description of that of that tag
is not for not for mere mortals

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sorry, current press, not for
mere mortals

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Dave Jones: will boost your
benefits with this approach. So

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anyway,

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Adam Curry: so now that we have
a great marketing site that I

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Dave Jones: would encourage for
AI, yes, right.

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Adam Curry: I should be able to
take that and then right

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beautiful description. I mean,
it can do I'm sure it can do 45

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pages, like Target 45 pages of
document documentation. Yeah.

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Let's let's just let the AI
loose on it. It'll be fixed in

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no time. Well, I'm excited to
write

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Dave Jones: your HTML for you to
do anything

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Adam Curry: that's a great idea.
So I got I got another one of

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those. I think I sent you the
link that start nine is now

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supporting the open open llama
lucky ticket ding dong. That's

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my favorite model LLM the luck
of DECA ding dong LLM. When I

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inserted loaded it up, and, you
know, first thing I do is put in

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there to see if I still have it
open. You know, tell me about

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the value for value, the value
for value model, and it starts

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right away by telling me that
this was developed by the World

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Economic Forum like okay yeah,
All right, good job boys

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negative was like, oh, man, it's
just not good for search. It's

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just not good for search,
commerce blog, post anything.

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Dave Jones: I grabbed stable
diffusion the other day, because

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I was trying to have been
playing around with the NVIDIA

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local LLM. So I grabbed this
table diffusion went and I was

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like, Well, you know, maybe I'd
like to mess around with a local

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image LLM. And I'm just trying
to get my, you know, get my feel

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for how this stuff works. And it
sucks. I mean, it's horrible. It

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makes the worst images have ever
seen. I'm sure there's some I'm

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sure there's like 27 Different

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Adam Curry: you're not doing it
right.

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Dave Jones: I'm holding it
wrong. You're I mean, like it's

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your

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Adam Curry: it's awful. Your
best said like, you're not a

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good PJ. Prop jockey.

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Dave Jones: Prom. As I was, I
just gave us something simple.

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Like, I want to draw a picture
of a dog in a sitting in a field

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of flowers or something like
that. And it was like, complete

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it looked like a some sort of
alien creature in It was awful.

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Yeah. Is this is not good tech.
Well, I mean,

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Adam Curry: okay, and we need to
get off of this in just a

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moment. But what you know, no
agenda. We have no agenda art

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generator.com. And we have
30,000 images for you know,

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1600. And what are we at 16 for
1600 42 episodes. And we have

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multiple artists always
competing to create the album

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art during the live show that we
then use for that episode. And

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ever since the AI our
generators, it's been

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increasingly hard to find
something that's good. Because

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people just you know, prompt
jockey away. And yeah, okay,

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it's, it's rendered pretty, but
there's no humor, there's no

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meal. It's like, there's nothing
in there that makes it like oh,

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that's a great piece of art. Oh,
that's hilarious. Oh, you

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understood how to how to portray
this one thing we talked about.

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It's just gotten bad. And even
established artists who are

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doing a lot of hand work, you
know, they're now kind of

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phoning it in. It's destroying
creativity.

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Dave Jones: That yeah, I don't
the all the image Ella limbs,

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they all have their own little
flavor. In it's like they get

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you can tell, really, almost
immediately which one it came

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from. You know, they. So you can
say, Oh, well, that's mid

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journey. Oh, that's a dolly.
That's this. Because they all

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just kind of see, I guess it's
just the training set they use

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and the optimizing that they do,
they all tend to look the same.

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Adam Curry: And for some reason,
there's a reasonably large

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contingent of people who want to
make podcasting as boring as

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possible to make the show notes
all boring. Make your chapters

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boring. Make your art boring.
And oh, I can't wait to just

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have aI generated voices so it's
just all boring. Yeah, it's

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gonna be great. This creativity
comes from the Lord our Creator

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people, not from an AI
generator.

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Dave Jones: Speaking to JCD hit
that y'all got a story the other

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day about a dog with a box on
his head. My wife had there,

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where she grew up in South in
South East Tennessee. There was

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a legendary dog named Jughead
and Jughead got his head stuck

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he ran away and got to get his
head stuck in a milk jug or not

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a milk jug of milk carton like
some kind of rights like yes I'm

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gonna milk no it's not it's like
a it's like a milk container or

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something. And it just he ran
around with his head stuck in

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that milk container for like a
week.

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Adam Curry: I'm happy to hear
that you listened all the way to

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the end to hear the good news
story. This is very good. I like

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that.

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Dave Jones: No, I'm I listened.
If I if I listened to an

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episode, I usually finish it.
And then And like with I was

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talking with the own podcast
indexer socialism earlier with

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somebody about advertising and
versus V for V and all this kind

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of stuff. And I mean, I'm not
anti advertising either. I

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listen all the way through the
ads. I try. I try not to skip

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ads when I can. Even though I've
got a download and I could and

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nobody would know but I still
just feel like I need to know

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Adam Curry: if the ads are I
like my hatless and pivot. I

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listened to the ads on that
because they're their products

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that I probably won't buy and I
always love listening to what's

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the what's the company that owns
the software versioning system.

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Dave Jones: Software Version
system, the

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Adam Curry: one that got hacked,
the China basically has all of

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us want to look at it. So
Atlassian Exactly. Atlassian and

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they own a couple of products.
One of them is the isn't the the

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the versioning system the
software?

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Dave Jones: Yeah. What's that?
Yeah, like? JIRA, maybe?

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Adam Curry: JIRA. Yeah. Anyway,
conflict Confluence. There you

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go. Okay. And so Atlassian
advertised on their podcast all

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the time. With to me, you know,
their technology show, they talk

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about all kinds of cyber
attacks, but never about the one

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that involves their advertiser.
Isn't that interesting?

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Dave Jones: Yes. Curious.

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Adam Curry: So that kind of
stuff. bugs me. It's

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interesting. You bring that up,
because I was talking to some,

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I've been doing a couple of
interviews again, just to get

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out there and get some more 2.0
noise in the marketplace where I

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can tell you Yeah, Jesus in 2.0.
Man, that's what I'm all about

263
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these days. Okay. But yeah, it's
combover of champions. And so

264
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and, oh, what are we drinking?

265
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Dave Jones: This is a look, this
is a Lacroix, I'm clearly

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speaking to JCD. Again, I'm
clear on same. I know what I

267
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know exactly what JCD drinks,
what he drinks, when he drinks

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it. It's whatever is the
cheapest on sale that can be

269
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delivered from Amazon. That's
the algorithm, because I'm on

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the same algorithm. Hashtag show
beer. Exactly.

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Adam Curry: So and I find
myself, you know, talking about

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RSS delivery. And just how it is
the, the model for content

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delivery of the future. And this
also comes a little bit into I

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talked again, to Zack from Indy
hub, who is, you know, he's

275
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definitely retooling is going to
get RSS feeds. He understands

276
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that he knows that he's a smart
guy. And he's way ahead of the

277
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curve, because he already
understands he and he comes to

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it from a Bitcoin perspective,
so he understands lightning. He

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also, you know, he looked at
noster and he said, I see the

280
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communities as but I don't see
the delivery system, let's say

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exactly. I said, and yeah, we
have, you know, the apps are

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there we go look at podcasting.
to.org you may not understand

283
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what the features are, but there
are a whole bunch of them that

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do it. And, and, you know, so he
gets it. And so, you know, so

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RSS, it really is the delivery
mechanism. And right now, the

286
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:29,070
the monetization part, really
value for value is what works.

287
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It's scary. It takes you know,
it's, it's, it's a there's an

288
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:39,840
onboarding process to you know,
we would podcasters is one

289
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:44,670
thing. She has me podcast that a
lot 1000s and 10s, of 1000s of

290
00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:49,740
podcasters are now understanding
value for value. Not all of them

291
00:17:49,740 --> 00:17:52,890
certainly not all of them
implemented correctly. But boy,

292
00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:56,160
I mean, there's a couple of
people who just run into the

293
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:01,200
bank with this and just go look
at the at the fountain top 10

294
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,140
And then go listen to those
shows listen to their ass listen

295
00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:06,900
to their, their Thank you
segment, how they do it this

296
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:12,990
week in Bitcoin, which is, you
know, it is now the weekly web.

297
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:19,350
I look forward to it, you know,
it's a good show. And I streamed

298
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:24,330
200 SATs a minute, and I boost
them and he and he gets it. And

299
00:18:24,510 --> 00:18:27,720
yes, it's Bitcoin. So that's
going to be easier. But there's

300
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,840
all kinds of shows that are
starting to use this very well,

301
00:18:30,870 --> 00:18:37,710
not bringing artists over that
hump. It's, it's really, I don't

302
00:18:37,710 --> 00:18:41,340
think any artist gets it, what
we're talking about when they

303
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first sign up. And I think that
wavelength knows how to talk to

304
00:18:45,750 --> 00:18:50,910
artists. There's many other many
other very good choices for them

305
00:18:50,910 --> 00:18:55,980
right now. And, you know, I love
what pod home and RSS blue.com

306
00:18:55,980 --> 00:19:00,450
Yeah, really 2.0 native hosting
companies that they're talking

307
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:05,910
to this contingent differently.
But until someone sees sat

308
00:19:05,910 --> 00:19:09,390
streaming into their wallet,
that's when they go, Oh, wow,

309
00:19:09,390 --> 00:19:13,920
what is this, it's that moment.
And as soon as you know, it's,

310
00:19:13,950 --> 00:19:17,910
it's a it's a heavy lift, it's a
long lift. But once you see it,

311
00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:22,380
and then once you can make that
work within your, your budget of

312
00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:27,480
your creation, there's a future
there for you. And you know, you

313
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,240
just have to be honest, it's
going to be 3% of the audience

314
00:19:30,450 --> 00:19:33,720
will actually contribute but if
you keep if you figured out how

315
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,400
to do the ask and, and and have
that feedback loop, whichever

316
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,210
way you do it, I mean, look at
the chosen, they raised, you

317
00:19:42,210 --> 00:19:46,230
know, $10 million, I think for
their for their, for their

318
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:49,320
second series. Now they're on
their fourth series, and, you

319
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,910
know, they thank people by
giving them trips to be on the

320
00:19:53,910 --> 00:19:57,120
set and just all kinds of
different, you know, gamifying

321
00:19:57,120 --> 00:20:01,710
things that put in there. So it
works with with Vidya with film

322
00:20:01,710 --> 00:20:05,970
as well. So with the 14,000,
independent filmmakers who

323
00:20:05,970 --> 00:20:11,910
submit to the Sundance festival
every year, they didn't all have

324
00:20:11,910 --> 00:20:15,510
a million dollar budget. But the
technology has gotten much

325
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:19,260
easier. So anyway, long story,
to bring it around to my

326
00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:22,530
favorite saying you cannot
monetize the network. Because

327
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,890
ultimately, it's really about
the content itself about what

328
00:20:25,890 --> 00:20:30,570
that one, that one show or that
one album or that one artist,

329
00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:35,130
what, that's what you want. And
the audience cares less and less

330
00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:38,760
about sub network that is
promising to give me more of the

331
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:42,810
same and better and etc, and
promote stuff to me. And that's

332
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:47,190
what is now breaking down the
streaming model, the streamers,

333
00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:51,750
I'm talking at Paramount plus
Disney plus Hulu, Netflix, this

334
00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:56,940
new sports conglomerate, that's
all your sports will now be

335
00:20:56,940 --> 00:21:00,870
behind one big paywall on a
streamer. And it's it's, it's

336
00:21:00,870 --> 00:21:04,350
breaking people's minds, it was
great in the beginning, because

337
00:21:04,350 --> 00:21:06,960
you get that, oh, I can watch
this whenever I want to watch

338
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,460
it. But the Wall Street Journal
podcast did a, they had a

339
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:17,040
survey, they put in some of
their own their own experiences

340
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,850
with streaming. And I pulled a
couple of clips, just to

341
00:21:20,850 --> 00:21:26,400
accentuate. I mean, they're
using words that I love. And

342
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,400
some that just makes so much
sense where you can start to see

343
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:33,180
that yeah, okay, you know, the
US House of Cards, costs, you

344
00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:37,590
know, maybe 30 $40 million to do
a series. But that's House of

345
00:21:37,590 --> 00:21:42,360
Cards. There's a lot of stuff
out there that is just, it

346
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:45,510
doesn't have to necessarily be
high overhead production. And if

347
00:21:45,510 --> 00:21:49,530
you get enough people to look at
it in a value for value model,

348
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,970
eventually we're going to find
stuff that will work. So anyway,

349
00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:58,110
this is kind of a story about
the streaming companies, the

350
00:21:58,110 --> 00:22:00,870
problems that we're running
into. But listen to this, this

351
00:22:00,870 --> 00:22:01,770
first clip. First,

352
00:22:01,770 --> 00:22:04,200
Unknown: I want to talk about a
relatively new trend you

353
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,080
reported on and that is
consumers canceling their

354
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,840
streaming subscriptions. Does
that have to do with the price

355
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,840
hikes we've seen introduced by a
number of streaming services. So

356
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,030
you see customers starting to
get to a point where their

357
00:22:15,030 --> 00:22:18,390
streaming budget where they're
realizing that it's approaching

358
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,870
what cable used to be or just
starting to feel really

359
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:24,540
expensive and meaty. And so
they're saying, What do I

360
00:22:24,540 --> 00:22:26,970
actually need? What am I
actually spending my time on.

361
00:22:27,150 --> 00:22:30,240
And because those streamers have
raised prices, they have kept

362
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,990
the simplicity of being able to
easily turn them on and off. A

363
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:36,570
lot more consumers have gotten
savvier about saying, You know

364
00:22:36,570 --> 00:22:38,790
what, I'm going to binge this on
Hulu, and then I'm going to turn

365
00:22:38,790 --> 00:22:41,910
it off, or I'm going to binge
this next season on Netflix. And

366
00:22:41,910 --> 00:22:45,180
then I won't need it again for
two months until this next show

367
00:22:45,180 --> 00:22:48,570
comes out. So I think much
savvier consumer has emerged and

368
00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:51,960
also with inflation, and just
the the rising cost of living

369
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:54,180
households are saying how much
am I actually spending on

370
00:22:54,180 --> 00:22:58,050
entertainment? And am I getting
full value out of it? Oh,

371
00:22:58,050 --> 00:23:00,000
Adam Curry: she used the V word.
Oh,

372
00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:06,660
Dave Jones: this this is exactly
this is totally true. I've done

373
00:23:06,660 --> 00:23:13,170
this. I did this exact thing.
Yesterday, we watched what was

374
00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:17,640
it? We watched a series on
Netflix. I can't remember what

375
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,020
it was right now. Watch the
series on Netflix last month.

376
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:28,050
And then we ended I noticed that
Netflix had my card again.

377
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,620
Because we had we had not been
subscribed to it for gosh,

378
00:23:31,620 --> 00:23:36,300
almost a year. And then we
renewed it to watch one show.

379
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:40,290
Can you can see. And then I can
end and so I hit my card again.

380
00:23:40,290 --> 00:23:42,180
And I was like, Oh, I forgot to
cancel that. And so I just

381
00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:44,760
cancelled it. I'm like, well,
when something else comes out

382
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,760
that we really want to watch.
I'll pay for one month of it.

383
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,760
We'll watch it and then we'll be
done. I mean this and did the

384
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:56,100
same thing with Paramount plus.
Basically what we've decided is

385
00:23:56,100 --> 00:24:01,920
one, we will not have more than
two streaming video things at

386
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,240
any one time. Oh,

387
00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:05,820
Adam Curry: you will put
yourself on a better streaming

388
00:24:05,820 --> 00:24:07,590
budget. Yeah.

389
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,290
Dave Jones: Because if you
don't, you'll end up with it's

390
00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:13,620
worse than cable if you if you
don't watch it. That's so we you

391
00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:17,790
know, we we've kind of just kind
of loosely said let's not let's

392
00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:22,260
try not to have more than, you
know, 2025 bucks or 30 bucks a

393
00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:27,600
month because we cancelled our
cable subscription. We had a

394
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:34,860
cable subscription we cancelled
that in 2004 and we have not had

395
00:24:34,860 --> 00:24:39,960
a cable subscription since then.
So we were an early cord cutter.

396
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:40,800
This

397
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,140
Adam Curry: is very interesting
because right away and this is

398
00:24:43,140 --> 00:24:48,330
always to be expected NAMM post
in the boardroom? Nas VPN Plex.

399
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,620
I like to pay for my content.
None of those services offer you

400
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:57,720
even the opportunity to pay for
the content even on a voluntary

401
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,990
basis. People say all the time
hey man Get Plex give me my

402
00:25:00,990 --> 00:25:03,060
account. It's all this cool
stuff for free. And I always say

403
00:25:03,060 --> 00:25:05,520
thank you really appreciate
that. But I like to play pay for

404
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,790
my content. It's kind of a Karma
thing with me. You know, it's

405
00:25:08,790 --> 00:25:12,900
like I live by this, I don't
want to die by this. So, you

406
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:17,610
know, I, I literally ask people
to support me. And I give my

407
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:21,270
value out freely without any
expectation that you have to

408
00:25:21,270 --> 00:25:24,720
have no expectation. How about
that for biblical one? Minute?

409
00:25:25,530 --> 00:25:30,090
Dave Jones: Yeah, I feel kind of
the same way. That's, that's

410
00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:35,880
what it's Yeah, I feel very
similar. Because we buy, we buy

411
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,230
a lot of stuff. And that's one
reason why I want to keep my

412
00:25:40,290 --> 00:25:44,580
streaming low, is because we
just, I just outright buy

413
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:48,750
movies, and not necessarily the
disk, but I'll just try them on

414
00:25:48,750 --> 00:25:51,600
a stream or whatever. It's like,
with all these musicals, we've

415
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,350
been watching, like, I've bought
Phantom of the Opera the other

416
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:59,130
day, I mean, we just, we just
pay for it, I'm, I'd rather

417
00:25:59,130 --> 00:26:02,640
just, I'd rather just as I need
it, it may end up actually being

418
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,330
costing me more per month. But
this is this is the Now Phil, I

419
00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:10,530
feel like the actual creator of
the thing gets more money when I

420
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:11,160
do that.

421
00:26:11,310 --> 00:26:15,540
Adam Curry: So it's now where to
exact so we're talking about

422
00:26:15,540 --> 00:26:21,360
reverse value for value here.
You know, people are like, oh, I

423
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,390
want this series. So I'm gonna,
I'm gonna subscribe to Netflix

424
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:28,410
for a month, and then I'm gonna
cancel, that's not good for

425
00:26:28,410 --> 00:26:31,590
Netflix, that's not good for
their bottom line. They're not

426
00:26:31,590 --> 00:26:34,440
making then I don't know what it
is. But I'm sure they have to

427
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,050
have you for an X number of pay
periods before you actually

428
00:26:37,050 --> 00:26:41,220
start to pay off. And then long
term, it's just it's not going

429
00:26:41,220 --> 00:26:46,590
to work. And in fact, so there's
my you can't monetize the

430
00:26:46,590 --> 00:26:49,770
network, the network being the
streaming service, because

431
00:26:49,770 --> 00:26:53,100
people just want to have it.
Like, I just want that one show.

432
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,790
And I'm going to unsubscribe,
even the whole idea of all these

433
00:26:56,790 --> 00:26:58,230
different apps is a problem

434
00:26:58,260 --> 00:27:01,320
Unknown: there. I mean, services
like Amazon Prime, for example,

435
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,830
you can access a couple of other
streaming services from that

436
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:08,490
platform. Is there anyone right
now trying to streamline the

437
00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:11,610
streaming process? So maybe
someone like Margo can watch

438
00:27:11,610 --> 00:27:14,850
everything in one place? Yeah.
So this is an interesting pain

439
00:27:14,850 --> 00:27:17,790
point. In the streaming world,
it remains really fragmented.

440
00:27:17,820 --> 00:27:21,060
There are certainly companies
like Amazon, YouTube, Apple to a

441
00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:24,240
degree that are trying to become
more of the gatekeepers. But

442
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,060
there are lots of reasons why
certain streamers may not want

443
00:27:27,090 --> 00:27:29,610
to do that they want to have
their app alone be the

444
00:27:29,610 --> 00:27:32,640
destination for streaming, to
not have consumers start their

445
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,030
journey elsewhere. So this is
really an unresolved issue. For

446
00:27:36,030 --> 00:27:39,210
many, like the Smart TV screen
is the best shot at a landing

447
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:42,600
page. But it's not terribly
searchable. It's not really the

448
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,980
dream version of it,

449
00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:48,360
Adam Curry: think, look at how
far ahead, we are the head of

450
00:27:48,360 --> 00:27:52,800
these guys, people you know,
wherever you get your podcast is

451
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,380
powerful, it's powerful. And
that means that you are using an

452
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:03,780
app that works the way you want
it to. And in many cases, if it

453
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:06,870
doesn't work the way you want it
to you can find the developer

454
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:12,570
and make a suggestion, I despise
the autoplay of Netflix and Hulu

455
00:28:12,570 --> 00:28:18,150
is doing it now sometimes to
hate it. I'm always turning down

456
00:28:18,150 --> 00:28:22,770
the volume. You know, if I want
to preview out, click for a

457
00:28:22,770 --> 00:28:26,790
preview, the autoplay is just
this annoying. The search

458
00:28:26,790 --> 00:28:30,150
doesn't work the same,
everything is different. I'm

459
00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:34,170
having to bend my mind around
different streaming podcast

460
00:28:34,170 --> 00:28:37,200
apps, if you will. And this is a
problem. They're identifying

461
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,220
this very problem. But all we
want to be gatekeepers. Well,

462
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,610
the audience that you're serving
doesn't want it and that's why

463
00:28:44,610 --> 00:28:47,340
they're, they're behaving the
way they are. And then the third

464
00:28:47,340 --> 00:28:51,960
and final clip, this one blew my
mind, one of their listeners,

465
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,460
and this was not the only person
who had this type of behavior.

466
00:28:56,580 --> 00:28:57,660
This was very cool.

467
00:28:57,690 --> 00:29:00,210
Unknown: So let's talk about how
companies are responding to such

468
00:29:00,210 --> 00:29:03,510
varied consumer behavior. Here's
a really interesting example

469
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:06,900
from Sam Rotenberg, who isn't in
it for the visuals,

470
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:10,680
Nathan G.: I tend to skew to
shows that are more audibly

471
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,100
interesting. As I'm walking
around the house, I find myself

472
00:29:14,100 --> 00:29:18,630
listening to shows more often
than I used to, instead of just

473
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:20,730
sitting there and watching them.
So

474
00:29:20,730 --> 00:29:22,530
Unknown: I think this is really
interesting, because we're not

475
00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:25,950
even talking about a consumer
watching habit. We're talking

476
00:29:25,950 --> 00:29:29,910
about listening. How do
companies get a grasp on their

477
00:29:29,910 --> 00:29:33,090
streaming company has on such a
wide range of consumer behavior

478
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:36,420
and how we're not only seeing
and viewing but listening to

479
00:29:36,540 --> 00:29:38,670
Yeah, this is a real area of
interest for them and

480
00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:43,170
understanding when and how
consumers are using their

481
00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:46,470
service that it's not as obvious
as I throw it up on my living

482
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:49,320
room TV screen. For some people,
you know, increasingly I've

483
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,300
heard lately they listen to
Netflix when they're going to

484
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:54,030
bed, that it's something that
helps them fall asleep at night

485
00:29:54,030 --> 00:29:57,000
for young people. There's often
multiple screens involved in

486
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,850
multiple forms of entertainment
happening at once. So really

487
00:29:59,850 --> 00:30:03,420
under Understanding the way in
which consumers are accessing

488
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:06,330
this is important for streamers
to understand the utility of

489
00:30:06,330 --> 00:30:10,260
their services and who is more
likely to turn versus stay,

490
00:30:10,410 --> 00:30:12,960
because the service has become
part of their daily lives are

491
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,130
not separate

492
00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:17,880
Adam Curry: the content from the
playout experience people. It's

493
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,460
so painfully obvious, this

494
00:30:20,460 --> 00:30:24,630
Dave Jones: is true, but I
hadn't win. So this young guy

495
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:31,710
that works for me, I think he's
25. And I've learned so much

496
00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:38,040
from this guy, like about Gen Z,
in in their behaviors about

497
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,920
things. One thing I've one thing
I've learned is it's tons of Gen

498
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,070
Z. Uses subtitles.

499
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,750
Adam Curry: The Oh, big time.
Oh, yeah, this is this is I'm

500
00:30:51,750 --> 00:30:56,520
using them now. And we did Yeah.
Some research on that and no

501
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,050
agenda. Part of it is because of
how sound is mixed these days. A

502
00:31:01,050 --> 00:31:05,760
lot of this makes for theater
for Dolby 5.1. The center

503
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,170
channel is often ignored for
regular type of

504
00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:13,680
Dave Jones: viewing, as muddy,
wet, muddy,

505
00:31:13,710 --> 00:31:17,430
Adam Curry: but also this has
become because there's so much

506
00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:22,110
multiple screens going on. It's
become a crutch that Gen Z and

507
00:31:22,110 --> 00:31:26,130
millennials and yeah, I'll even
say Gen X has started to use, I

508
00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:28,920
grew up with subtitles in the
Netherlands. So it's very

509
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,270
comfortable for me. This is why
I've always been we've been on

510
00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:37,110
transcripts from day one. People
really love this, even when

511
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:40,110
they're listening to something.
It's a huge part of the

512
00:31:40,110 --> 00:31:42,240
experience. The

513
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,690
Dave Jones: other thing it the
other thing that he said was

514
00:31:45,690 --> 00:31:49,950
that he does exactly what she
mentioned, he falls asleep.

515
00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:55,350
Yeah. Went to Netflix. And I'm
like, How in the world can you

516
00:31:55,350 --> 00:31:57,480
do it? This doesn't make any
sense. Whereas

517
00:31:57,570 --> 00:32:02,580
Adam Curry: lots of people fall
asleep to a podcast. That's why

518
00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:07,050
many podcasts apps have the
sleep timer. And unfortunately,

519
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,660
even my wife sometimes it's you
know, when I'm when I'm when I'm

520
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:12,720
traveling, I like to listen to
you so I can fall asleep like

521
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,190
what this is. This is rude.
She's

522
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:19,380
Dave Jones: gonna train herself.
She's around

523
00:32:20,850 --> 00:32:23,610
Adam Curry: Slovenia, and
syphilis lethargy, this, I think

524
00:32:23,610 --> 00:32:30,870
is what it's called. So my
conclusion from this is a couple

525
00:32:30,870 --> 00:32:34,020
of things. One, we're doing
great people, we're doing great

526
00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:38,670
to carry out carry, we got
something special going on here,

527
00:32:38,670 --> 00:32:46,350
too. I think that, that there's
still so much room. For podcast

528
00:32:46,350 --> 00:32:49,860
apps, you know, we have a very,
I've said this, from the first

529
00:32:49,890 --> 00:32:53,580
day we start out on this
journey, we have a very set idea

530
00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:57,930
of what a podcast app has to be.
But everybody now kind of knows

531
00:32:57,930 --> 00:33:00,300
that, you know, you've you've
hopped around, you've tried a

532
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:04,230
couple, something works for you
for some reason. And so I

533
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:10,800
encourage app developers to
solicit feedback to continuously

534
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:12,510
because that is your customer.
That's a whole nother

535
00:33:12,510 --> 00:33:15,270
conversation we can have based
on what's been going on this

536
00:33:15,270 --> 00:33:19,260
week. That is your customer,
that is who you are, who you're

537
00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:25,230
satisfying. There's huge value
in in what you do. And then I

538
00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:30,690
think in order to move forward
with the value for value model,

539
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,210
I think there's, this is gonna
sound weird coming from me. But

540
00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:42,840
I would almost want to have a
flag in my feed that says, when

541
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:48,390
someone goes to play my podcast,
I would like to app to pop up

542
00:33:48,390 --> 00:33:52,830
something to remind them it's
value for value, please consider

543
00:33:53,340 --> 00:33:56,760
putting in a value per minute or
per hour or whatever right now

544
00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:03,120
before you continue. And then
that's something app developers

545
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,250
are gonna have to think about
themselves, because that may be

546
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:07,560
too intrusive, maybe that's not
what they want for their

547
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,710
customers for their, for their
users, which I just think are

548
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:15,840
customers. But there's something
there's going to be some middle

549
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:22,710
ground that is needed to remind
people. So for instance, podcast

550
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:27,180
guru, which I've been using a
lot. I'll subscribe to a show.

551
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,610
And then I'll completely forget
that I have to manually enable

552
00:34:32,850 --> 00:34:37,170
the streaming sets per minute
for each new show. And I'll be

553
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,390
you know, I'll be on the third
time I'm like, Oh, crap, I

554
00:34:39,390 --> 00:34:41,280
haven't streamed a single sat to
the show.

555
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,430
Dave Jones: That that is
definitely a UI thing. Because

556
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,860
cast ematic for a V for V Enable
Show. It puts it right there in

557
00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:54,000
front of you. It's not, it's not
obtrusive, it's not intrusive.

558
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,750
Excuse me. It's not intrusive,
but it is, but it's not as a

559
00:34:57,750 --> 00:35:00,870
nice reminder and it doesn't get
in the way but it's right there.

560
00:35:00,870 --> 00:35:04,260
And it'll tell you, you know,
you're out. You're out of SATs,

561
00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:04,800
like you're,

562
00:35:04,860 --> 00:35:07,560
Adam Curry: that's another
thing. That's another thing I

563
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,640
really liked how fountain is
doing it now. It's right there

564
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,550
this little counter going, it
doesn't make me feel bad. In

565
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:17,460
fact, that makes me feel good
for some reason. But I thought,

566
00:35:17,670 --> 00:35:19,770
well, if you're showing how many
sets you're sending might not

567
00:35:19,770 --> 00:35:23,490
feel good, but I feel good. I
feel good seeing that. Now, they

568
00:35:23,490 --> 00:35:26,280
also have a counter on the other
side, which says you're earning

569
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,270
back this much per minute, that
and then. So these are UX things

570
00:35:30,270 --> 00:35:34,830
that are happening that are that
that need to be encouraged.

571
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:40,350
Don't just think you're there.
Think about these people. There

572
00:35:40,350 --> 00:35:43,890
are people coming who have thing
who cannot get any, it cannot

573
00:35:43,980 --> 00:35:49,860
steal position in these in the
streamer apps. This is what

574
00:35:50,370 --> 00:35:56,220
indie hubs dot studio has seen.
And I told him as well, it's

575
00:35:56,220 --> 00:36:00,180
like, it's not going to work. If
everyone has to, you know, come

576
00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:04,980
into one system, and has to set
you know, has to pay a set fee

577
00:36:04,980 --> 00:36:09,480
per minute they're watching, you
need to make this open. And and

578
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,140
but you know, in his app is
basically podcasts that he's

579
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:18,240
going to have all kinds of
screens or you know, user

580
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:22,020
experiences that show, hey, this
is what you're doing this is

581
00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:24,750
this is how you can help. This
is how you make the whole system

582
00:36:24,750 --> 00:36:30,120
function, etc. It's all about
moving beyond the podcast,

583
00:36:30,330 --> 00:36:36,990
listener or watcher even who is
used to adds to this new model.

584
00:36:37,020 --> 00:36:40,530
It can't just be Oh, yeah, it
also does value for value.

585
00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:43,110
Consider doing more.

586
00:36:45,870 --> 00:36:48,510
Dave Jones: Yeah, I think I see
what you're what you're talking

587
00:36:48,510 --> 00:36:52,650
about maybe the thing that
underlies what it may be the

588
00:36:52,650 --> 00:36:56,100
underlying thing of what people
are misinterpreting as a quote,

589
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,920
move to video, you know, like
that. There's these new sort of

590
00:37:02,220 --> 00:37:05,460
listener behaviors that are
happening. They're clear, I

591
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:08,820
mean, it's obvious there are
new, there's new ways that

592
00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:12,570
people are consuming media. I
mean, that we can't deny that

593
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,120
across the board. But it's been
interpreted in in ways because I

594
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,360
think there's just been some I
mean, forgive me, but clumsy.

595
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,700
Recent market research has been
done and ends up being like,

596
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:31,440
Well, yeah, I use YouTube in I
searched for my podcasts on

597
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,310
YouTube and it's like it. I
think maybe there's just not the

598
00:37:35,310 --> 00:37:38,340
true message of what's happening
is not really coming through.

599
00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:42,930
Yeah, then you, but when you
when you look at it, you see

600
00:37:42,930 --> 00:37:45,240
these Okay, well, here's how
these people are really

601
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:50,760
behaving. And then what is
podcasting need to do? Well,

602
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,660
first of all, I mean, podcasting
is perfectly positioned to take

603
00:37:54,690 --> 00:38:00,090
advantage of any use case,
because it is so flexible. Maybe

604
00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:04,470
you can see I mean we've seen
podcasting be morphed into mute

605
00:38:04,500 --> 00:38:09,150
into a music streaming app with
with like wave Lake and Ellen

606
00:38:09,150 --> 00:38:14,790
beats me podcasting can it's
just media delivered over an RSS

607
00:38:14,790 --> 00:38:19,650
feed it is so flexible you can
layer any UI any experience over

608
00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:22,290
the top of it that's the whole
point of podcasting two point of

609
00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:24,600
the whole point. Hey, so

610
00:38:24,930 --> 00:38:29,310
Adam Curry: I have a new name.
What did you you said it's just

611
00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:33,600
media over an RSS RSS feed. So
instead of Nasir it's morph

612
00:38:36,390 --> 00:38:38,130
Dave Jones: what media over an
arson yeah

613
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,160
Adam Curry: more more more

614
00:38:43,260 --> 00:38:46,860
Dave Jones: we can we get can we
get bitcoin VC funding easily

615
00:38:46,860 --> 00:38:50,310
Adam Curry: Hey Phoebe compare
ABC CBS like yeah register the

616
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:51,690
domain name dad. Okay, let

617
00:38:51,690 --> 00:38:53,970
Dave Jones: me see most yelling
at us for leaving Nathan in the

618
00:38:54,060 --> 00:38:54,750
in the lobby.

619
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,810
Adam Curry: Let's do that right
now. Let's bring in our guest

620
00:38:57,810 --> 00:39:01,470
today because he has been in
podcasting 2.0 for quite a

621
00:39:01,470 --> 00:39:05,280
while. In fact, I'll give you
the brief history he created pod

622
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,040
link which is bought by pod
sites pod sites was bought by

623
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,070
Spotify. Then they fired him.
Since then he's gone on to

624
00:39:11,070 --> 00:39:15,390
create steno.fm transcribe.fm
and has something new to

625
00:39:15,390 --> 00:39:18,450
announce today. We welcome to
the podcast in Tupelo a board

626
00:39:18,450 --> 00:39:22,830
meeting in the boardroom. Nathan
gathright. Howdy, howdy, howdy,

627
00:39:22,830 --> 00:39:30,660
howdy. Hey girl. Hey, girl. We
can be on NPR and Wall Street

628
00:39:30,660 --> 00:39:33,840
Journal and you go hey, Nathan,
how you doing, man? Pretty good.

629
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:40,050
So it's been a while but maybe a
year long. Yeah, just about. So

630
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,900
you want to weigh in on any of
the stuff we just talked about?

631
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:48,270
Nathan G.: Oh, I think all the
streamers got jealous of

632
00:39:48,270 --> 00:39:51,540
Netflix's stock price and they
waded into the streaming wars,

633
00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:54,540
having never had to ever deal
with churn management and

634
00:39:54,540 --> 00:39:58,740
realizing oh, we've we've led
cable networks, you know have

635
00:39:58,860 --> 00:40:02,040
year long contracts. Send wire
physical wires out to people

636
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,570
houses, all that jazz. And now
they joined the streaming wars

637
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:09,540
made like Oh, turn management is
a thing. Hmm. I guess I guess

638
00:40:09,570 --> 00:40:12,780
allowing people to sign up and
cancel within a month is not

639
00:40:12,780 --> 00:40:13,620
that great for our business?

640
00:40:14,310 --> 00:40:18,780
Dave Jones: Yeah, but the
Paramount Paramount is they're

641
00:40:18,780 --> 00:40:20,940
close to the end. Oh,

642
00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:23,160
Adam Curry: yeah. I mean,
they've got Larry Ellison's kid

643
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:24,990
buying up half of their assets.

644
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,650
Dave Jones: Yeah, I mean, that
they went all in on Paramount

645
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:33,090
plus, and it was a saw, yikes.
Yeah, it was bad.

646
00:40:33,180 --> 00:40:37,260
Nathan G.: Yeah, I think Sony is
the legacy media player that has

647
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:40,260
done the smart thing, which is
they're just a content arms

648
00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:42,630
dealer to everybody else,
they'll sell to Netflix, they'll

649
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:46,590
sell to whoever. And I think a
lot of these media companies are

650
00:40:46,590 --> 00:40:49,530
going to basically retreat to
that position, give up that

651
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:51,540
whatever their streaming
services and go back to just

652
00:40:51,540 --> 00:40:52,890
selling to everybody else.

653
00:40:53,580 --> 00:40:55,830
Dave Jones: That's an
interesting, I'd like that

654
00:40:55,830 --> 00:40:58,200
content arms dealer. That's a
funny.

655
00:40:59,730 --> 00:41:03,240
Adam Curry: It's Gosh, man, you
know, never came up in that

656
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,790
conversation. Was roku.

657
00:41:06,990 --> 00:41:11,910
Dave Jones: Oh, they are? Yeah.
You know, this, this is a hard

658
00:41:11,910 --> 00:41:14,970
thing in some ways, too.
Because, like James posted the

659
00:41:14,970 --> 00:41:19,950
other day about, you know, I
can't believe that. That stripe

660
00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:25,920
is doing a trillion dollars in
in transaction volume. And, you

661
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,340
know, so I went and looked at
their, at their, you know,

662
00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:31,170
earnings and stuff are not
earnings, but they're still

663
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,650
they're not public financials or
whatever financials, in the best

664
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:39,210
days, they apparently are still
not profitable is that it's none

665
00:41:39,210 --> 00:41:41,580
of those business, but they're
the second largest payment

666
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:44,490
processor in the world, and they
still don't turn a profit. So

667
00:41:44,490 --> 00:41:48,510
unbelievable. Yes. So you have
to wonder about some of the

668
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:52,590
about this whole thing is like,
well, Roku, sometimes you think,

669
00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:54,630
Oh, well, they're perfectly
positioned, they must be doing

670
00:41:54,630 --> 00:41:59,010
well. But that's not always the
case, the volume, if the margin

671
00:41:59,010 --> 00:42:01,620
is low, the volume really
doesn't help you. And

672
00:42:01,650 --> 00:42:04,020
Adam Curry: when they're really
just an app store, you know, the

673
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,470
App Store. And that's it.
They're like, they're like the

674
00:42:07,470 --> 00:42:10,980
iPhone of streaming apps. But
without all the all the other

675
00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:14,940
stuff, just literally the App
Store. So anyway,

676
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,110
Dave Jones: Nathan, I'm about to
click on this link. That I

677
00:42:19,110 --> 00:42:20,580
tweeted, yes.

678
00:42:21,720 --> 00:42:24,900
Adam Curry: Know what it does
episodes dot F m, I want to take

679
00:42:24,900 --> 00:42:25,740
a look at this.

680
00:42:26,310 --> 00:42:29,760
Dave Jones: Okay. I clicked on
it. And if it's a fancy

681
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,920
Adam Curry: green logo, so it
makes me feel like climate

682
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:32,880
change right away.

683
00:42:34,170 --> 00:42:37,200
Nathan G.: It's more like a
radioactive green. Ah, oh, it

684
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,350
Adam Curry: is? Yeah, it is kind
of gooey. Yes. Let's see. Yes.

685
00:42:41,250 --> 00:42:45,600
waste sorting by popularity,
save preferred podcasts apps

686
00:42:45,930 --> 00:42:48,870
live. What is this? Tell them
tell us what this is Nathan.

687
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:49,710
Yeah. So

688
00:42:49,740 --> 00:42:52,410
Nathan G.: after I sold pod
link, I, you know, still wanted

689
00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:57,000
to keep working on it. But I,
you know, was now a employee of

690
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,910
pod sites. And so all my time
really had to go to their

691
00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:03,690
priorities. And making a tool
like pod link better was pretty

692
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:07,260
low on the to do list. And
especially after they acquired

693
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:10,410
both, especially after Spotify
acquired both pod sites and

694
00:43:11,370 --> 00:43:15,330
charitable charitable had Smart
Links already, pod link did not

695
00:43:15,330 --> 00:43:18,330
really fit in strategically. So
it's just sort of floating a

696
00:43:18,330 --> 00:43:22,950
drift within Spotify being
maintained for you know, some

697
00:43:22,950 --> 00:43:25,560
undetermined amount of time. And
I didn't want to leave

698
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,290
podcasters in the lurch if they
ever decided that they were just

699
00:43:28,290 --> 00:43:30,900
gonna shut it down and ignore
it. I've offered to you know,

700
00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:34,680
take over maintenance of it in
the past, but no progress on

701
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:40,380
that front. But episodes FM is
sort of is my return to the

702
00:43:40,410 --> 00:43:43,170
genre of this type of product.
So

703
00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:47,070
Adam Curry: wow, I get it. I see
what it does. No, yeah,

704
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:50,520
Dave Jones: I'm on our show.
Yeah, I'm listening. And then

705
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,660
you and then it's got links to
all the other apps that will

706
00:43:54,660 --> 00:43:56,400
also let you listen to the live
stream.

707
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,640
Nathan G.: Yeah. So if you click
you know, if you click out to

708
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,700
like the show level link, you
can also click down into any of

709
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:05,520
your old episode level links.
And there's a lot more than six

710
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:11,190
apps on those episodes or on the
show level itself. I've got 30

711
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:15,240
apps in there right now. So
you've got quite a lot. And when

712
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:18,240
a visitor clicks on one of these
things, it sets a cookie on

713
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:21,180
their device to sort of like set
their preferred podcast app,

714
00:44:21,180 --> 00:44:25,140
there's no device level setting
of a preferred podcast app. And

715
00:44:25,140 --> 00:44:27,420
we've had efforts like, you
know, fast follow that are

716
00:44:27,420 --> 00:44:32,190
trying to sort of work at this
problem. Episode. Sorry,

717
00:44:32,220 --> 00:44:37,290
episode. Playing live. Yeah,
episodes FM sort of is my

718
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,160
approach to that problem, which
is, you know, a service that

719
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:44,670
lets you set a preferred podcast
app. subsequent visits after

720
00:44:44,670 --> 00:44:47,550
that first time will just take
you straight into that app. So

721
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:50,070
you say fountain is your
favorite app. Anytime you ever

722
00:44:50,070 --> 00:44:52,950
click on an episode, that FM
link in the future, it will just

723
00:44:52,980 --> 00:44:55,650
always go to fountain and you
won't have to hunt through a

724
00:44:55,650 --> 00:44:58,920
list of 30 plus apps every
single time to get to the show.

725
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,840
You want to listen to Ha,

726
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:04,290
Adam Curry: that's this is
really interesting. That's and

727
00:45:04,290 --> 00:45:06,210
now will it is

728
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:10,709
Dave Jones: like paddling. It's
like pod link for live

729
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:13,770
Nathan G.: a lot. Yeah, life is
just one feature, though. It's

730
00:45:13,770 --> 00:45:17,100
doing it at the show level, and
at the regular episode level as

731
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:23,790
well. So if you know if you're
just a vanilla person who likes

732
00:45:23,790 --> 00:45:27,000
Apple podcast, you know,
episodes.fm will just take you

733
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:32,190
straight to the, you know, the
chauffeur, any podcast on Apple

734
00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:35,340
podcast or the episode level
link for any episode on Apple

735
00:45:35,340 --> 00:45:39,090
podcasts. And you'll basically
never really see this webpage

736
00:45:39,450 --> 00:45:41,940
beyond the first time as long as
you have your cookie set.

737
00:45:42,930 --> 00:45:47,130
Adam Curry: So the idea is that,
instead of using your podcast

738
00:45:47,130 --> 00:45:49,590
app, you go to episodes.fm.

739
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,770
Nathan G.: Now, you'd still end
up back in your own pocket,

740
00:45:52,770 --> 00:45:53,460
right, right.

741
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:57,510
Adam Curry: But but so if I just
say I want to see pod news,

742
00:45:57,540 --> 00:46:03,060
weekly review. So I type that in
click, and then I can play the

743
00:46:03,060 --> 00:46:05,460
latest episode right away. But I
can't say I always want to

744
00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:10,590
listen to this on the overcast.
And then it'll set that and so

745
00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:14,070
whenever I go back to
episodes.fm, which is so that

746
00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:16,530
would be kind of my starting
spot. Like I want to listen to

747
00:46:16,530 --> 00:46:17,520
X, Y, or Z.

748
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:21,390
Nathan G.: Yeah, I think it's
really for, it really only works

749
00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:25,560
if a lot of podcasters
themselves all use episodes FM

750
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,290
to sort of promote their shows.
So maybe you're scrolling

751
00:46:28,290 --> 00:46:32,040
through Mastodon, and somebody
is promoting their show, instead

752
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,710
of like, okay, let me do a copy
paste the name of the show hope

753
00:46:34,710 --> 00:46:36,420
that there's not some sort of
like special character in the

754
00:46:36,420 --> 00:46:37,170
name of the show that?

755
00:46:38,940 --> 00:46:41,160
Adam Curry: Yeah, so it's
really, it's

756
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,590
Nathan G.: really the call to
action for podcasters, who,

757
00:46:43,590 --> 00:46:46,170
instead of just saying, wherever
you find it, you know, wherever

758
00:46:46,170 --> 00:46:48,450
you get your podcasts, they can
actually provide a call to

759
00:46:48,450 --> 00:46:51,690
action that takes the listener
straight there without asking

760
00:46:51,690 --> 00:46:53,820
the listener to do a lot of
like, copy pasting. So

761
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:54,780
straightaway,

762
00:46:54,810 --> 00:47:01,770
Adam Curry: I want to reserve
podcasting.episodes.fm No,

763
00:47:01,770 --> 00:47:04,470
agenda.episodes.fm. I'd like to
buy those from

764
00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:09,180
Nathan G.: you. Yeah, so I've
got no sort of paid plan in

765
00:47:09,180 --> 00:47:10,080
right now. But I just

766
00:47:10,650 --> 00:47:11,250
Adam Curry: gave it to you.

767
00:47:13,410 --> 00:47:15,570
Nathan G.: I'm definitely
planning on supporting custom

768
00:47:15,570 --> 00:47:19,560
domains, so that if people you
know, want to own their own

769
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,650
domain and not be just linking
out to some third party service

770
00:47:22,650 --> 00:47:26,130
that, you know, could maybe go
away one day in the future.

771
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:30,270
Adam Curry: Oh, that would be
great. So I could have like, or

772
00:47:31,230 --> 00:47:35,580
could I do a subset where I say,
Okay, go to curry podcast.com.

773
00:47:35,970 --> 00:47:41,760
And it shows my not, it shows my
Oh, here you go. It shows my

774
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,220
publisher channel and it shows
my pod roll.

775
00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:47,430
Nathan G.: Yeah, I definitely
want to explore publisher

776
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:50,790
channel, once a few more people
start making those, I definitely

777
00:47:50,790 --> 00:47:55,200
want to be supporting publisher
channels as well as episodes.

778
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:58,680
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's very
cool. That's a great idea.

779
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,700
Nathan G.: Yeah. So tied in with
this sort of idea is a couple of

780
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:06,240
proposals for the namespace that
I have going on. One of which

781
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:09,450
is, hey, there's these six apps
right here on like the live

782
00:48:09,450 --> 00:48:14,670
link. But if you support the
content link tag in your live

783
00:48:14,670 --> 00:48:17,940
item, I want to be able to add
all of those as well. So if

784
00:48:17,940 --> 00:48:20,760
you're also streaming on
YouTube, or rumble, or Twitch,

785
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,610
or Facebook, or whatever, I want
those apps to be able to

786
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,210
populate on this list in
addition to the six podcast

787
00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:30,600
apps. So I'm planning on adding
support for the content link

788
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,570
tag, just sort of parse those
links out of Live item tags in

789
00:48:33,570 --> 00:48:34,380
the RSS feed.

790
00:48:34,770 --> 00:48:38,880
Dave Jones: And then in the in
the Content link is so content

791
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,330
link tag is an existing tag and
your what you propose is as an

792
00:48:42,330 --> 00:48:45,450
enhancement to that basically,
it's very, it's just a, it's a

793
00:48:45,450 --> 00:48:49,260
simple change, that just because
you retracted your previous

794
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:55,740
proposal, and now you've
switched to just a a very simple

795
00:48:55,740 --> 00:48:58,620
change, which is allowing the
content link to be in the item

796
00:48:58,620 --> 00:49:00,570
tag instead of just a live item
tag.

797
00:49:00,660 --> 00:49:03,390
Nathan G.: Yeah, correct. So I
want to I want to support it in

798
00:49:03,390 --> 00:49:08,400
episodes FM for both live item,
live items and regular items. So

799
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,460
that podcasters can control the
content, like I can control the

800
00:49:11,460 --> 00:49:14,460
links on this page without
having to like come claim their

801
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:18,480
feed with me and then Laura some
interface and you know, like,

802
00:49:18,510 --> 00:49:21,240
oh, you you know, but in some
cases, it's like, you know, I

803
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:25,080
want to link to Patreon or some
sort of like platform that I

804
00:49:25,500 --> 00:49:27,750
wouldn't have no way to
programmatically find the

805
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:30,900
Patreon link for a given
episode. But you could put a

806
00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:34,950
Content link tag in in your
item. And say, here's where the

807
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:37,950
Patreon version of this episode
exists. Maybe it's an extended

808
00:49:37,950 --> 00:49:42,630
edition. Maybe it's just the ad
free version, things like that,

809
00:49:42,630 --> 00:49:46,050
where there is another app where
you can get this content, but

810
00:49:46,050 --> 00:49:48,240
maybe it's not in this RSS feed.
Could

811
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:52,380
Adam Curry: I limit it? So say I
only want these to surface

812
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:55,950
Nathan G.: right now? No,
because I'm sort of like with

813
00:49:55,950 --> 00:49:59,730
this sort of cookie based model.
I want visitors to you know, set

814
00:49:59,730 --> 00:50:03,000
that one cookie and then note
that they can always go into

815
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:06,330
their show, like can always
trust that episodes FM will take

816
00:50:06,330 --> 00:50:09,030
them into their preferred
podcast app. So I am thinking

817
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:11,310
about that for like the custom
domains maybe like giving you

818
00:50:11,310 --> 00:50:16,320
more control in the custom
domain setting, but I want sort

819
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,730
of episodes.fm domain to be a
like reliable service, or like,

820
00:50:20,730 --> 00:50:24,150
Yes, I'm somebody who always
listens in, you know, Apple

821
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:28,530
podcasts, you shouldn't be, you
shouldn't be able to hide the

822
00:50:28,530 --> 00:50:31,350
podcasting 2.0 apps, I don't
really want to enable that

823
00:50:31,350 --> 00:50:34,350
behavior, right? People, you're
like, Hey, I'm a big fan of

824
00:50:34,350 --> 00:50:37,170
Pocket Casts, you're like,
sorry, the podcast or sign up

825
00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:39,960
for my service. And they only
really are aware of the top

826
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:42,900
three apps. I don't really want
to enable that behavior.

827
00:50:43,140 --> 00:50:45,690
Adam Curry: Right. But it's kind
of cool, because you have kind

828
00:50:45,690 --> 00:50:48,690
of customers, you have
podcasters, who will be

829
00:50:48,690 --> 00:50:54,300
customers in the future, who can
have custom setups. And you have

830
00:50:54,330 --> 00:50:57,750
listeners who can tailor this
to, I guess, to their own needs.

831
00:50:57,780 --> 00:50:59,730
That's what it is right now.
Yeah,

832
00:50:59,790 --> 00:51:02,070
Nathan G.: I think potentially,
the tension between trying to

833
00:51:02,070 --> 00:51:05,790
serve both of those parties who
maybe have different goals is is

834
00:51:05,790 --> 00:51:08,160
the one of the difficult
challenges of this, but I think

835
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:08,970
I want to solve

836
00:51:09,090 --> 00:51:10,380
Adam Curry: your Nathan
gathright.

837
00:51:11,580 --> 00:51:14,250
Unknown: He's gonna do this
challenge. Just for breakfast.

838
00:51:14,250 --> 00:51:15,150
Got this?

839
00:51:15,690 --> 00:51:17,880
Adam Curry: Yeah. Wow. That's
cool, man. That's very cool.

840
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:22,050
Congratulations. Nice. Thank
you. Nice. Nice reveal. So what

841
00:51:22,050 --> 00:51:24,900
are we Dave now we just a promo
show, and we got the buddy

842
00:51:25,890 --> 00:51:29,400
sprout guys want to promote
their iOS app, you know, it's

843
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,060
like, blueberry wants to promote
his show. I mean, we're just

844
00:51:33,060 --> 00:51:36,090
like a regular regular show.
Now. We're like the Tonight

845
00:51:36,090 --> 00:51:36,570
Show.

846
00:51:38,190 --> 00:51:41,040
Dave Jones: We should be getting
a piece of the work for Nathan

847
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,330
because he's not making any
money. So

848
00:51:44,070 --> 00:51:47,130
Nathan G.: the one of the things
I want to call out is the the OP

849
00:51:47,130 --> 00:51:49,350
three integration. So
specifically, because podcasting

850
00:51:49,350 --> 00:51:55,650
2.0 has op three, in their RSS
feed, the sort order is based on

851
00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:57,720
podcasting. 2.0 is ranking?

852
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:00,720
Adam Curry: Ah, all

853
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,120
Dave Jones: right. So I don't
understand that. Can you explain

854
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:03,300
that

855
00:52:03,330 --> 00:52:08,910
Nathan G.: I go. So, you know,
if you look at a Libsyn, like

856
00:52:08,910 --> 00:52:11,370
ranking of top apps, you know,
Apple podcasts will be number

857
00:52:11,370 --> 00:52:17,160
one, and, you know, on like pod
news and pod news, podcast

858
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,340
pages, maybe like filter out the
apps that aren't relevant for

859
00:52:20,340 --> 00:52:24,000
your user agent. Okay, sort of
an alternative approach to that

860
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,700
is I just say, Well, what about
the OP three stats for this

861
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:30,480
exact show I, I can put the
podcasting 2.0 apps at the very

862
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,190
top of the list for podcasting
2.0 Because or pod news, weekly

863
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:38,280
review or any of these apps
where a significant portion of

864
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:42,870
their audience is coming from
these more niche apps, I can put

865
00:52:42,870 --> 00:52:44,850
it at the top of the ranking,
because I know that's where the

866
00:52:44,850 --> 00:52:49,110
existing audiences, this new
listener probably also will want

867
00:52:49,110 --> 00:52:51,300
to listen where the existing
audiences tell

868
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,040
Adam Curry: us about the search.
How are you? How are you

869
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:54,240
implementing this search.

870
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,200
Nathan G.: So at the top level,
the search is just doing iTunes

871
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:02,250
search, because a lot of these
platforms really rely on the

872
00:53:02,250 --> 00:53:05,040
iTunes ID as their link, like
you cannot link to an overcast

873
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,550
page without a show having an
iTunes ID, things like that. So

874
00:53:08,670 --> 00:53:11,430
I want to make that better. But
right now, it's just using the

875
00:53:11,430 --> 00:53:15,150
iTunes look up to find these
shows. But then it's queering,

876
00:53:15,180 --> 00:53:17,070
the podcast index for most of
the data.

877
00:53:18,330 --> 00:53:22,440
Dave Jones: So let me let me see
it says, so let me ask you this.

878
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,130
So are you doing this in this
op? Three? Check? Are you doing

879
00:53:26,130 --> 00:53:31,770
that in real time? Yeah, cuz the
line. Okay, the live stream? I

880
00:53:31,770 --> 00:53:35,700
mean, that's, that must be
happening is happening now.

881
00:53:36,660 --> 00:53:39,930
Nathan G.: Yeah. Like, the OP
three check is really kind of

882
00:53:39,930 --> 00:53:45,210
just to sort the apps. It's not
deciding what apps to to. It

883
00:53:45,210 --> 00:53:47,970
doesn't have like the episodes
specific link for pod verse.

884
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,970
It's just linking to the Show
page. And then the listener has

885
00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:54,390
to click in from the Show page
to the Live episode themselves.

886
00:53:55,260 --> 00:53:58,260
But I maintain that repository
full of all the URL link

887
00:53:58,260 --> 00:54:01,320
patterns for show level and
episode level links. If the

888
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:05,520
podcasting 2.0 apps that support
live want to provide a like sort

889
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,370
of like, programmatic way that I
could link straight to the live

890
00:54:08,370 --> 00:54:11,880
stream, I'd be happy to support
that for any of these, any of

891
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:12,570
these, like apps that

892
00:54:12,570 --> 00:54:15,540
Adam Curry: we have so so I go
to podcast and 2.0. It shows pod

893
00:54:15,540 --> 00:54:18,450
verse at the top than Apple
podcasts Pocket Casts. This is

894
00:54:18,450 --> 00:54:20,970
based upon the OP three data.
Yes.

895
00:54:21,150 --> 00:54:26,610
Nathan G.: So it's the OP three
data combined with the the user

896
00:54:26,610 --> 00:54:29,310
agent of the device that you're
on. So if you view this exact

897
00:54:29,310 --> 00:54:33,000
same page on an Android phone or
an iPhone or Mac, the sort order

898
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,110
is all going to be slightly
different. To do that

899
00:54:42,180 --> 00:54:44,430
Dave Jones: back now, very
interesting.

900
00:54:44,460 --> 00:54:47,760
Nathan G.: Yeah, yeah, Spurlock
released some new API's for me

901
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:53,220
this week that basically let you
get the global ranking of apps

902
00:54:53,220 --> 00:54:57,630
for a given user agent or for a
given device. So on Android

903
00:54:57,630 --> 00:55:00,180
phones, they're still you know,
downloads that are being

904
00:55:00,180 --> 00:55:02,250
attributed to Apple podcast.
Maybe they're listening in the

905
00:55:02,250 --> 00:55:06,090
web player. Maybe it's apps. Oh,
that's fascinating. Stealing

906
00:55:06,090 --> 00:55:07,920
Apple podcast is user age and
living thing.

907
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:09,780
Adam Curry: So it's

908
00:55:09,780 --> 00:55:10,740
Dave Jones: different Elma my

909
00:55:10,740 --> 00:55:14,940
Adam Curry: web browser brave. I
get pod verse Apple podcasts

910
00:55:14,940 --> 00:55:20,070
Pocket Casts G Potter player FM,
on my Android also brave

911
00:55:20,250 --> 00:55:24,180
fountain pod verse podcast,
attic antenna pod podcast guru.

912
00:55:24,180 --> 00:55:26,970
This is dynamite. Man. This is
very interesting.

913
00:55:27,240 --> 00:55:29,460
Dave Jones: And I'm on the
iPhone. So I get fountain pod

914
00:55:29,460 --> 00:55:34,290
verse, overcast podcast, Guru
castbox.

915
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,260
Adam Curry: Overcast does show
up on my list, which is

916
00:55:37,260 --> 00:55:41,040
impossible on the Android but
it's way down the list. So

917
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:41,820
that's you broke it.

918
00:55:42,030 --> 00:55:44,910
Nathan G.: I don't I don't hide.
I don't hide any hide anything.

919
00:55:44,910 --> 00:55:47,100
Yeah, I got Yeah, they all just
get shuffled further down the

920
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:50,550
page, if they don't have a
significant market share on that

921
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,680
device type. Fabulous.

922
00:55:52,740 --> 00:55:57,120
Dave Jones: I love it. And I'm
assuming that for the live stuff

923
00:55:57,180 --> 00:55:59,940
that you've probably you've
probably just got, do you have

924
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:02,610
hard coded just the apps the
support live and then you just

925
00:56:02,610 --> 00:56:06,990
shuffle them? According to what
the order is? is in mobi? Three.

926
00:56:07,170 --> 00:56:09,210
Nathan G.: Yeah, definitely.
Okay,

927
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:11,940
Dave Jones: okay. How's this? So
amazing, man, it's

928
00:56:11,940 --> 00:56:15,510
Adam Curry: really cool. How
strim scribd.fm doing? You know,

929
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:15,840
it's

930
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,150
Nathan G.: not quite taken off.
I think it's essentially just

931
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:21,960
like a wrapper around the deep
Graham transcription service.

932
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,880
But let's do pay in Satoshi. So
I haven't really been able to

933
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,210
devote, you know, more resources
to figuring out what else it

934
00:56:30,210 --> 00:56:33,750
could become, besides just that,
you know, it hasn't paid for,

935
00:56:33,780 --> 00:56:37,980
you know, its own domain name,
just yet.fm domains are pricier

936
00:56:37,980 --> 00:56:40,620
than people are willing to pay
SATs for transcripts. But

937
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:42,780
Adam Curry: yes, you have to I
would love to use it. But you

938
00:56:42,780 --> 00:56:46,200
know, you know what my problem
is? is I need Speaker Labels.

939
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,690
Nathan G.: Yeah, it Yeah, it
does. It does the speaker

940
00:56:48,690 --> 00:56:50,760
identification, then it throws
in, you know, Speaker One,

941
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,510
Speaker two, and it'll get
confused by all the little ISOs.

942
00:56:54,510 --> 00:56:58,290
And other soundboard things of
are those additional speakers,

943
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,610
the same speaker. So deep Graham
is not so fantastic at that I

944
00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:06,180
can see why fountain and other
and transistor and other people

945
00:57:06,930 --> 00:57:09,930
don't do. They don't support any
of that. So I wasn't really

946
00:57:09,930 --> 00:57:12,870
going to like do the engineering
effort to build that on my own.

947
00:57:13,710 --> 00:57:16,980
It was like, if deep Graham, you
know, implement something like

948
00:57:16,980 --> 00:57:18,810
that, then happy to pull those.

949
00:57:20,370 --> 00:57:22,740
Adam Curry: I'll switch away
from otter the minute you have

950
00:57:22,740 --> 00:57:25,590
that. I mean, because I have to
say I'm pretty impressed with

951
00:57:25,620 --> 00:57:30,180
otter, it's also gotten a little
bit faster. But you know, if I

952
00:57:30,210 --> 00:57:36,960
haven't spoken to see, I forget
what it was, though, even with

953
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,920
this show, it'll probably pick
up your voice and auto detect

954
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:46,020
and tag your speaker number as
you in this episode. It's good

955
00:57:46,020 --> 00:57:47,430
at that. I mean, all

956
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:49,590
Nathan G.: that sort of like
fingerprinting thing is Yeah, to

957
00:57:49,590 --> 00:57:52,320
me, but very interesting. Yeah.

958
00:57:52,350 --> 00:57:54,360
Adam Curry: No, because that's
the only reason why well, I

959
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,610
don't use you because I'd really
love to support you. But it's

960
00:57:56,610 --> 00:57:57,870
just yeah,

961
00:57:57,900 --> 00:58:00,540
Dave Jones: I got any kind of
got Sherlock to but Apple

962
00:58:00,540 --> 00:58:02,760
podcast transcript. Yeah.

963
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,850
Nathan G.: It, but it also
supports a lightning payment

964
00:58:08,850 --> 00:58:12,690
API. So you can without even
using the interface. It's called

965
00:58:12,690 --> 00:58:17,370
the l 402. API, which is
basically, you know, provide a

966
00:58:17,370 --> 00:58:20,220
URL to a piece of audio and ask,
like, Hey, I'd like to

967
00:58:20,250 --> 00:58:23,700
transcribe this, I look at the
duration, I generate an invoice,

968
00:58:23,700 --> 00:58:27,150
I send that back to you, you,
you know, pay that invoice and

969
00:58:27,150 --> 00:58:30,690
send send back like sort of like
proof of payment with a second

970
00:58:30,690 --> 00:58:34,890
API request and then receive the
full transcript. So I think

971
00:58:34,890 --> 00:58:38,460
like, there's something there
and building lightning payment

972
00:58:38,460 --> 00:58:43,020
API's for various services, like
if true fans wants to transcribe

973
00:58:43,020 --> 00:58:48,360
things, and just wants to pay a
third party service. I want to

974
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,360
see, you know, pod verse and
true fans, and maybe some other

975
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:55,470
parties maybe make some services
that they use, you know, they

976
00:58:55,590 --> 00:58:58,500
they build it for themselves,
but then they allow other

977
00:58:58,500 --> 00:59:01,770
podcasting apps to also take
advantage of it and be

978
00:59:01,770 --> 00:59:03,180
compensated for that effort.

979
00:59:03,660 --> 00:59:05,280
Adam Curry: Oh, cool. Very cool.

980
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,900
Dave Jones: Can we talk? Can we
talk about the follow tag? Yes.

981
00:59:12,420 --> 00:59:19,260
The so what and what had
happened is, you know, we had

982
00:59:19,260 --> 00:59:23,610
this, I guess we had this idea
of putting content links, or

983
00:59:23,610 --> 00:59:28,110
excuse me, you had proposed
putting content links into the

984
00:59:28,110 --> 00:59:32,940
feed for all the different
places where a show would live.

985
00:59:33,390 --> 00:59:37,680
So for all the spot, Spotify
tags, Spotify links, I mean, all

986
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:39,780
these different places. You can
either watch the show is

987
00:59:39,780 --> 00:59:43,350
similar. I mean, this the
content link, but then Kevin

988
00:59:43,350 --> 00:59:48,750
from Buzzsprout, said, who you
know, that's for a hosting

989
00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:52,890
company that has 300,000 feeds.
Bandwidth is always an issue if

990
00:59:52,890 --> 00:59:57,450
you make his every, every little
addition to the RSS feed causes

991
00:59:57,450 --> 01:00:00,240
their cost to go up by a large
amount just because As of the

992
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,900
volume, and so rather than
putting, you know, 50 content

993
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:08,790
links in, in each item, you had
said, Well, why don't we do

994
01:00:09,420 --> 01:00:14,010
change the structure around and
put all the follow links, but

995
01:00:14,010 --> 01:00:17,820
all the content links into an
external file? And then relink

996
01:00:17,820 --> 01:00:22,380
to it with a tag? Is that you
want to flesh that out a bit.

997
01:00:22,830 --> 01:00:25,710
Nathan G.: Yeah. So initially, I
wanted, I was imagining Content

998
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:29,250
link, it could scale from live
item to item to channel, and

999
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,530
just sort of walk that back and
say, like, okay, Content link,

1000
01:00:31,530 --> 01:00:35,490
it's just for live item. And
item is my proposal. If you put

1001
01:00:35,490 --> 01:00:38,730
50 of them in for, you know, you
don't really have 50 live

1002
01:00:38,730 --> 01:00:40,920
streaming platforms, but you
know, so you put like, three in

1003
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,610
for live item, maybe you want to
put two or three in at the item

1004
01:00:44,610 --> 01:00:47,490
level. And maybe you don't do it
for every single episode, maybe

1005
01:00:47,490 --> 01:00:52,140
you just do it. For like, Hey,
I'm putting in one link per

1006
01:00:52,140 --> 01:00:55,500
episode, you know, because
Patreon. And that's, that's all

1007
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:58,590
you do, or maybe one link per
episode for the YouTube video

1008
01:00:58,590 --> 01:01:04,290
for this episode. Let that be
sort of at the like discretion

1009
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:10,140
of the podcaster. But the follow
tag would be separate for the

1010
01:01:10,140 --> 01:01:13,650
channel. And so there'd be an
external json file to link out

1011
01:01:13,650 --> 01:01:17,670
to pod verse Apple, Spotify,
overcast, whatever. So

1012
01:01:17,700 --> 01:01:21,090
obviously, episodes, FM has like
30 plus links here that I'm able

1013
01:01:21,090 --> 01:01:24,570
to get programmatically. There's
another 30 links that I can't

1014
01:01:24,570 --> 01:01:28,230
get programmatically. You know,
the Youtube playlist for a show

1015
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:32,460
is not something that is as easy
for me to find as the apple

1016
01:01:32,460 --> 01:01:36,270
podcasts URL for a show, given
an RSS feed, that sort of thing.

1017
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:41,100
So if podcasters want to add
more apps to their episodes, FM

1018
01:01:41,130 --> 01:01:43,920
page, I want to give them a way
to do that in the feed without

1019
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,830
having to come claim their show,
and then manually add those

1020
01:01:46,830 --> 01:01:50,460
links. And if you're hosted on
Buzzsprout, or transistor, your

1021
01:01:50,460 --> 01:01:53,010
web page already includes those
links, there already is some

1022
01:01:53,010 --> 01:01:55,410
part of the admin UI where they
can say like, oh, yeah, here's

1023
01:01:55,410 --> 01:02:00,000
my Amazon Music link. And here's
my XYZ link, and whatever. So

1024
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,240
the podcast follow tag is just
my proposal for, hey, this

1025
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:06,690
should be in the feed to the
feed is the way that the

1026
01:02:07,170 --> 01:02:10,530
podcaster or the host, it's
their API with the all the

1027
01:02:10,530 --> 01:02:13,950
players and all the other
services, I'd love for them to

1028
01:02:14,460 --> 01:02:17,730
put all those links in a JSON
file, just sort of be a self

1029
01:02:17,730 --> 01:02:21,570
verification method. So I can
say like, Okay, I could go use

1030
01:02:21,630 --> 01:02:26,880
Amazon musics API that's behind
a, you know, NDA and 10. Other

1031
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,190
signatures, I tried to do this
when I was still running public,

1032
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,880
reached out to people at Amazon
music, tried to get an Amazon

1033
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,450
Music button on the page. And it
was nearly impossible because of

1034
01:02:36,450 --> 01:02:40,170
Spotify legal had to review a
contract. And then Amazon music

1035
01:02:40,170 --> 01:02:42,450
had to review a contract. I'm
like, I just want to link to a

1036
01:02:42,450 --> 01:02:48,060
podcast on No, I'm not trying
to, like, why did why do lawyers

1037
01:02:48,060 --> 01:02:51,180
need to be involved when I just
want to, like, grab a link. And

1038
01:02:51,180 --> 01:02:53,700
Amazon music just couldn't make
that easy for me. And Spotify

1039
01:02:53,700 --> 01:02:55,680
couldn't make that easy for me.
And I was like, you know, the,

1040
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,020
this is really between the
podcasters. And the listeners,

1041
01:02:58,350 --> 01:03:00,420
the podcasters, should be able
to write the links to their

1042
01:03:00,420 --> 01:03:04,260
shows Amen. And they shouldn't
have to go through me as a

1043
01:03:04,260 --> 01:03:07,200
middleman, that it should just
be in the RSS feed. So I think

1044
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,950
the follow tag is after, you
know, hearing by the sprouts

1045
01:03:10,950 --> 01:03:13,050
argument of like, yeah, we're
not going to add, you know, 10,

1046
01:03:13,050 --> 01:03:16,710
or even, you know, much less 50
links to various platforms,

1047
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,070
right in the feed itself, maybe
you will link it in a JSON file.

1048
01:03:21,420 --> 01:03:24,570
I sort of rewrote the proposal
to sort of split those two use

1049
01:03:24,570 --> 01:03:28,140
cases. So channel level links,
and a podcast follow tag item or

1050
01:03:28,140 --> 01:03:29,940
live item links and a Content
link tag.

1051
01:03:31,500 --> 01:03:35,340
Dave Jones: Because of the
looking at your, the schema or

1052
01:03:35,340 --> 01:03:39,300
your JSON structure here, it's
it's very, it's very simplistic.

1053
01:03:39,300 --> 01:03:42,090
I mean, the first, there's
different types of things. So

1054
01:03:42,090 --> 01:03:45,240
you have like a basic example.
And then you have some social

1055
01:03:45,270 --> 01:03:49,170
links. I mean, I guess the first
thing that hits me is me is

1056
01:03:49,170 --> 01:03:53,310
there's some need for like a
type parameter, or a type

1057
01:03:53,430 --> 01:03:57,870
property that differentiates
these things. Yeah, the media

1058
01:03:57,870 --> 01:04:01,110
link, and this other one is a
social link, or, yeah,

1059
01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:04,110
Nathan G.: in my mind, every
single link should refer to this

1060
01:04:04,110 --> 01:04:08,820
show. And whatever this show
means. And presumably, it has

1061
01:04:08,850 --> 01:04:15,690
equivalent, you know, sub items
for episodes. Just, you know,

1062
01:04:15,690 --> 01:04:17,550
the same sort of thing like
that, like, yes, you might have

1063
01:04:17,550 --> 01:04:20,250
a, you know, a social interact
tag that has all the same

1064
01:04:20,250 --> 01:04:22,500
information in it. I didn't
really think social links would

1065
01:04:22,500 --> 01:04:26,550
be, you know, a compelling use
case here. It was just sort of

1066
01:04:26,940 --> 01:04:30,780
fleshing out what you were
talking about with trying to get

1067
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:34,140
links like to that extent, but I
think the basically the sample

1068
01:04:34,140 --> 01:04:36,630
and the multiple links to the
same domain example are the two

1069
01:04:36,630 --> 01:04:40,080
that I think are really
interesting. But type, I really

1070
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:42,330
was just trying to keep this as
like bare bones as possible so

1071
01:04:42,330 --> 01:04:45,960
that hosts don't have a lot more
you don't have to had don't have

1072
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,020
to add any more UI to their
existing interface where they

1073
01:04:49,020 --> 01:04:53,190
let podcasters like supply
additional links beyond what

1074
01:04:53,190 --> 01:04:56,490
they're what they're doing right
now. I think, any app that like

1075
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,340
wants to parse these, they can
just look at the domain name and

1076
01:04:59,340 --> 01:05:02,400
group them for their own
purposes, just because some

1077
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,400
podcaster throws any arbitrary
link in here doesn't mean I'm

1078
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,970
going to show it on episodes FM,
I'm going to check against like

1079
01:05:08,970 --> 01:05:11,520
an allow list and say like, do I
already have an icon for this

1080
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,460
app? Like, oh, I'll show rumble
because I have a rumble icon.

1081
01:05:14,460 --> 01:05:18,390
But I'm not going to show some,
you know, xyz.com link just

1082
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:21,330
because you put it in your RSS
feed. So I'm, you know, trying

1083
01:05:21,330 --> 01:05:25,080
to serve, serve the needs of the
listeners and the podcasters.

1084
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:26,940
And trying to strike a right
happy balance in between those

1085
01:05:26,940 --> 01:05:28,740
two things. Yeah,

1086
01:05:28,770 --> 01:05:30,510
Dave Jones: I think that makes
sense. Because this looks

1087
01:05:30,570 --> 01:05:35,520
essentially like a programmatic,
programmatic way to do to, like

1088
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:39,240
deliver a link tree or
something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The

1089
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:40,530
longer with your show,

1090
01:05:40,830 --> 01:05:43,110
Nathan G.: episodes of em kind
of is a link tree type service

1091
01:05:43,140 --> 01:05:45,270
in and of itself. And I just

1092
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:47,040
Adam Curry: like Link tree for
podcasts.

1093
01:05:48,210 --> 01:05:49,740
Dave Jones: VC give that guy
some money.

1094
01:05:51,060 --> 01:05:55,080
Nathan G.: I did talk to the
link tree CEO. Soon after I sold

1095
01:05:55,080 --> 01:06:00,810
pod Lincoln. He was like, Oh, we
were kind of interested. And

1096
01:06:00,810 --> 01:06:04,830
they ended up acquiring song,
the dot link, which eventually

1097
01:06:04,830 --> 01:06:08,550
themselves a couple years after
I started paddling, opened up

1098
01:06:08,580 --> 01:06:11,550
pods dot link, and I was like,
Oh, I really relate to the party

1099
01:06:11,550 --> 01:06:14,490
if you're if you're having to go
buy pods. Wow,

1100
01:06:14,580 --> 01:06:18,660
Dave Jones: it just seems it
just seems like a it just seems

1101
01:06:18,660 --> 01:06:23,340
like a good idea to deliver that
as part of this as tied to the

1102
01:06:23,340 --> 01:06:28,470
feed. Yeah, well, you don't?
Yeah, yeah. The feed itself into

1103
01:06:28,470 --> 01:06:31,620
turn, you know, is saying here,
here's what, here's where you

1104
01:06:31,620 --> 01:06:35,430
can find this other stuff. You
know, I think that makes a whole

1105
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:41,040
lot of sense. Because this is so
the other. The other one you had

1106
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:48,060
was the country tag. And this is
this is, you know, we haven't

1107
01:06:48,060 --> 01:06:50,910
had a good flame war. And while

1108
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:56,520
Adam Curry: I don't know, meta
data drama was pretty big, as

1109
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:57,330
far as I'm concerned

1110
01:06:57,330 --> 01:07:01,140
Dave Jones: till this week, as
well. And then we had some face

1111
01:07:01,140 --> 01:07:05,940
melting, you know, nobody got
muted or blocked that I know of,

1112
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,380
but, but the country tag almost
became that to everybody's like,

1113
01:07:10,380 --> 01:07:14,700
this sucks, you know, like,
Okay, well, people have such,

1114
01:07:15,900 --> 01:07:21,000
like, intense, like, feelings
about the country tag. And I was

1115
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:26,610
like, Okay, it's Benjamin
Bellamy. You know, he wanted, he

1116
01:07:26,610 --> 01:07:31,050
wanted this. And it's basically
just the country of origin. It's

1117
01:07:31,050 --> 01:07:33,810
just tagging the feed with the
country of origin that the

1118
01:07:33,810 --> 01:07:38,880
podcast is from? Yeah. That's a
miss. That's it. Right?

1119
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:40,410
Adam Curry: Yeah, that's crazy.
To me.

1120
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:43,050
Nathan G.: I think the problem
is, most podcast apps don't

1121
01:07:43,050 --> 01:07:45,900
really have a use for that. But
if you look at Apple podcasts,

1122
01:07:45,900 --> 01:07:49,470
they have a storefront that's
unique for every single show. So

1123
01:07:49,470 --> 01:07:53,160
their discover, you know,
homepage, to get you into new

1124
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,720
shows is precisely divided along
those lines. And that's never

1125
01:07:57,720 --> 01:08:00,450
been in the feet. So for the
same reason that I proposed,

1126
01:08:00,450 --> 01:08:03,480
like the update frequency tag, I
thought, you know, things that

1127
01:08:03,510 --> 01:08:07,800
end up in Apple podcasts, it'd
be great if they were had a

1128
01:08:07,800 --> 01:08:10,950
source of truth in the feed. So
I could see this influencing,

1129
01:08:10,980 --> 01:08:15,720
you know, if Apple ever decides
to, you know, use this tag to

1130
01:08:16,230 --> 01:08:18,690
help them identify shows that
are up and coming in a given

1131
01:08:18,690 --> 01:08:22,080
country, you know, maybe that's
useful, you can see that true

1132
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:25,980
fans has a has a little toggle
for searching by that, you know,

1133
01:08:26,070 --> 01:08:30,300
it can be useful in those sorts
of use cases. But if you're not

1134
01:08:30,300 --> 01:08:35,760
going to pitch a use case, that
really takes advantage of this

1135
01:08:35,790 --> 01:08:39,510
and works, whether this has low
adoption or high adoption. I

1136
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:42,360
think a lot of the tags really
sort of suffer from like, the

1137
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:45,390
reason people want to deprecate
some tags is because they have

1138
01:08:45,390 --> 01:08:49,290
minimal utility at low adoption
rates. And any proposal I've

1139
01:08:49,290 --> 01:08:52,800
written, I try to make sure that
it still has utility, even if it

1140
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:57,060
has a really low adoption rate.
So that the flywheel is greased

1141
01:08:57,060 --> 01:09:00,450
from, oh, you know, this app
supports it. So now these hosts

1142
01:09:00,450 --> 01:09:02,640
support it. Now these hosts
support it now this app supports

1143
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:05,610
it, and you can get that
virtuous cycle that increases

1144
01:09:05,610 --> 01:09:08,910
adoption, but it doesn't have to
wait until 100% adoption before

1145
01:09:08,940 --> 01:09:09,510
it's useful.

1146
01:09:10,770 --> 01:09:17,130
Dave Jones: I understand the the
hesitancy about the country tag

1147
01:09:17,160 --> 01:09:21,570
or the that's not the right word
unders understand the understand

1148
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:25,080
people that look may look at it
and say that's a useless tag.

1149
01:09:25,890 --> 01:09:31,170
I'm sympathetic to that. But at
the same time, like I can see it

1150
01:09:31,170 --> 01:09:35,640
from the other side, too,
because to us for like for me,

1151
01:09:36,030 --> 01:09:41,100
I, I I don't this tag does not
excite me in the least. But

1152
01:09:41,100 --> 01:09:45,780
that's because the US has a
gigantic, I mean, dominance

1153
01:09:45,780 --> 01:09:49,740
within podcasting. I mean, like,
there's just it's so what if

1154
01:09:49,740 --> 01:09:53,550
you're just another podcast from
the US? It's kind of an

1155
01:09:53,550 --> 01:09:57,030
irrelevant thing. But I think
from Mike Benjamin standpoint,

1156
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:02,910
French podcasting But that's a
big deal. Yeah, and or Italian,

1157
01:10:02,940 --> 01:10:06,510
if you're an Italian podcaster,
those are smaller communities.

1158
01:10:06,930 --> 01:10:11,730
And it sort of it has meaning to
it. But within that, within that

1159
01:10:11,730 --> 01:10:15,480
culture that you are a French
podcast, or that you're even

1160
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:19,320
from, that you're even produced
in France. So I think that like,

1161
01:10:19,500 --> 01:10:22,200
some of these, like I can
imagine, okay, like if you're a

1162
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:28,440
podcaster in, do you remember?
Adam, that guy that sent us? A

1163
01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:33,990
link to an OPML? file with like,
100? podcasts from Kazakhstan?

1164
01:10:34,020 --> 01:10:34,800
Yes. Yeah, I

1165
01:10:34,799 --> 01:10:36,059
Adam Curry: do. Yeah. Yeah.

1166
01:10:36,210 --> 01:10:39,240
Dave Jones: So if you're in
Kazakhstan, and you've only and

1167
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:42,360
there's only 100 podcasts in the
entire country. Yeah.

1168
01:10:42,360 --> 01:10:44,850
Adam Curry: You want exclusion
is good for exclusionary

1169
01:10:44,850 --> 01:10:46,650
searches. Yeah.

1170
01:10:46,649 --> 01:10:50,009
Dave Jones: And it's, it kind of
puts you, it identifies you in

1171
01:10:50,009 --> 01:10:52,409
this local, I mean, the same
thing that I Potter did I mean,

1172
01:10:52,589 --> 01:10:55,559
everything is separated by
geographic region, I don't know

1173
01:10:55,559 --> 01:10:59,159
there's a little bit of a, I
think the bigger your podcasts,

1174
01:11:00,059 --> 01:11:05,369
zone is, for lack of a better
term, then the less meaningful

1175
01:11:05,369 --> 01:11:09,779
this this is to you. But the
smaller your community, it, I

1176
01:11:09,779 --> 01:11:12,869
can see this being pretty
meaningful. And I'm really not

1177
01:11:12,869 --> 01:11:17,159
opposed to it. These kinds of
tags, that I think I've said

1178
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:19,829
this before, these these tags
that may have limited

1179
01:11:19,829 --> 01:11:24,389
usefulness, like you said, like,
you know, low usefulness at a

1180
01:11:24,389 --> 01:11:28,649
low adoption rate. These things
just don't bother me. Because if

1181
01:11:28,649 --> 01:11:31,769
somebody is out there, like,
here's what it here's my thing,

1182
01:11:32,369 --> 01:11:38,129
if it never hurts to have more
information in the feed, like it

1183
01:11:38,129 --> 01:11:43,469
just that it's there's never a
time when having more metadata

1184
01:11:43,829 --> 01:11:49,409
in the feed is a bad thing. So
even if even if most people or a

1185
01:11:49,409 --> 01:11:54,869
lot of platforms ignore it, if
there's one platform or app out

1186
01:11:54,869 --> 01:11:58,739
there, that sees this metadata
in there and says, Oh, that's

1187
01:11:58,739 --> 01:12:02,369
kind of cool, and comes up with
a cool use case for it. It's a

1188
01:12:02,369 --> 01:12:07,259
win. It's a win, maybe for,
let's say, out of 400,000 active

1189
01:12:07,259 --> 01:12:12,149
podcasts. It's a win for maybe
700 of them. That's fine. It's

1190
01:12:12,149 --> 01:12:16,139
still a win. Like, yeah, I don't
see the downside for that.

1191
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:19,500
Nathan G.: Yeah, I don't think
the podcast apps need to all act

1192
01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:23,400
in lockstep to support all
features. Part of the reason I

1193
01:12:23,490 --> 01:12:26,910
made steno FM was specifically
to sort of demonstrate a

1194
01:12:26,910 --> 01:12:29,970
different UX to transcripts than
I was seeing any of the other

1195
01:12:30,210 --> 01:12:33,780
2.0 apps adopted, they were all
sort of doing a caption style.

1196
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,200
No, Allah YouTube will show one
line at a time and was like, I

1197
01:12:37,200 --> 01:12:40,110
really want to see the read the
whole thing while I'm listening.

1198
01:12:40,440 --> 01:12:43,590
And that's the sort of UX that
Apple podcasts ended up going

1199
01:12:43,590 --> 01:12:47,370
with. For that same sort of
reason, I think, a bunch of the

1200
01:12:47,370 --> 01:12:50,130
other tags that have low
adoption rate, that's fine. It's

1201
01:12:50,130 --> 01:12:53,610
not like we are not trying to
have everybody act in lockstep.

1202
01:12:53,850 --> 01:12:56,880
If a tag doesn't prove useful
now, but maybe proves useful,

1203
01:12:57,090 --> 01:13:00,270
you know, two years from now,
we, you know, we shouldn't have

1204
01:13:00,270 --> 01:13:03,630
removed it in the meanwhile, I
don't I don't really see what

1205
01:13:03,630 --> 01:13:07,140
the advantages of taking some
tags out of the namespace.

1206
01:13:07,890 --> 01:13:10,020
Because they're not proving you
know, because they're not

1207
01:13:10,020 --> 01:13:13,050
reaching high adoption right
now. I don't like is there some

1208
01:13:13,050 --> 01:13:16,440
sort of, you know, besides true
fans, I don't know any app that

1209
01:13:16,440 --> 01:13:19,350
is like actively trying to make
sure they check off every single

1210
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:21,810
box, you know, Content link, and
follow our

1211
01:13:21,809 --> 01:13:24,209
Adam Curry: tree tag and create
new ones that don't exist.

1212
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,980
Nathan G.: Content, follow our
two tags that I don't see most

1213
01:13:28,980 --> 01:13:32,280
of the podcast app apps actually
adopting, but services like

1214
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:36,120
episodes, FM, and other and you
know, other things that come

1215
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:38,880
along, I think that makes total
sense for so it's not that we

1216
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:42,720
need to all be copying each
other, and having the exact same

1217
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:47,070
UX in all these various apps, in
order to pressure the more you

1218
01:13:47,070 --> 01:13:51,600
know, the bigger, more market
share apps, I think we can all

1219
01:13:51,600 --> 01:13:55,440
just sort of carve our own path
and it's a marketplace of ideas

1220
01:13:55,620 --> 01:13:59,970
to see what features listeners
are actually clamoring for.

1221
01:14:01,260 --> 01:14:03,360
Dave Jones: Yeah, I agree. And
some of these are some of these

1222
01:14:03,360 --> 01:14:08,160
are visionary things that that
they look they're really

1223
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:13,200
ambitious in what they want. And
so you have this sort of like

1224
01:14:13,200 --> 01:14:16,500
trickle trickle trickle and who
knows maybe five years from now

1225
01:14:16,500 --> 01:14:20,040
all of a sudden this may book a
specific use case comes up a

1226
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,210
specific app begins to use this
in a neat way and then lots of

1227
01:14:24,210 --> 01:14:26,580
people do it. I mean, look at
what just happened with

1228
01:14:26,580 --> 01:14:30,300
transcripts not transcripts was
a successful tag from the

1229
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:35,700
beginning. But it never but it
did not all of a sudden it had

1230
01:14:35,700 --> 01:14:40,650
it has now gone into a launch
phase because Apple podcast

1231
01:14:40,650 --> 01:14:45,330
adopted it. And now you know, it
triggered this, this this

1232
01:14:45,330 --> 01:14:48,570
waterfall of lip you know lips
and and other hosting companies

1233
01:14:48,930 --> 01:14:53,040
hurrying to adopt the tag. So it
doesn't take much to have a tag

1234
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:58,170
go from, you know, just mare
adoption rate to something

1235
01:14:58,170 --> 01:15:01,710
really impressive in a short
period of time. Time. And and I

1236
01:15:01,710 --> 01:15:04,980
don't I don't feel comfortable
putting arbitrary limits on how

1237
01:15:05,310 --> 01:15:09,360
long that that process is
supposed to take a look at RSS

1238
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:14,040
2.0. Look at the original RSS
2.0 spec. There's still elements

1239
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:17,010
in there that are not used today
very often, like the source

1240
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:21,540
element. You never see that tag
in use, but it's still in the

1241
01:15:21,540 --> 01:15:24,450
spec. And if you ask Dave wanted
to remove it, he's gonna you

1242
01:15:24,450 --> 01:15:25,350
know, he's gonna He's gonna
block

1243
01:15:25,350 --> 01:15:29,850
Adam Curry: jump on a block you
block you. Yeah, Dave, I don't

1244
01:15:29,850 --> 01:15:33,240
want to be the party pooper
here, but it's 148. And you have

1245
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,200
a heart out because you are a
single handedly taking care of

1246
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:41,010
tax returns for all of the state
of Alabama's commercial sector.

1247
01:15:41,610 --> 01:15:42,420
Yes.

1248
01:15:44,220 --> 01:15:46,170
Dave Jones: Okay, yeah, we want
to thank some people. Yeah,

1249
01:15:46,170 --> 01:15:48,300
Adam Curry: well, yeah,
actually, that we can kind of do

1250
01:15:48,300 --> 01:15:52,140
a, a two prong thing here
because we're getting a lot of

1251
01:15:52,710 --> 01:15:55,650
live booths. And some of them
are responsive to the

1252
01:15:55,650 --> 01:15:59,220
conversation. So we'll we'll
kick it off with that. And I

1253
01:15:59,220 --> 01:16:02,310
want to thank Steven B for
testing whatever he's testing

1254
01:16:02,610 --> 01:16:07,170
during the show because it makes
it sound very active. He's

1255
01:16:07,170 --> 01:16:10,590
testing the split kits
soundboard different sounds for

1256
01:16:10,590 --> 01:16:11,310
SATs.

1257
01:16:11,850 --> 01:16:13,380
Dave Jones: There's a lot of pew
pew

1258
01:16:14,460 --> 01:16:17,730
Adam Curry: he's a big pew pew
anonymous with a row of ducks.

1259
01:16:17,730 --> 01:16:22,380
2222 Thank you very much. So
Stephen B is sending all kinds

1260
01:16:22,380 --> 01:16:24,930
of amounts. He's testing
something with a soundboard

1261
01:16:24,930 --> 01:16:29,580
which sounds exciting. Chad F
2222. He says hearing a lot of

1262
01:16:29,580 --> 01:16:33,270
pews just want to feel included.
Pew pressure. Whoo. Pew

1263
01:16:33,270 --> 01:16:40,530
pressure. I like that. Sam Sethi
column 5000 SATs Colin, try tag.

1264
01:16:41,730 --> 01:16:45,990
Colin on show try tag is step
one. Great for analytics. Also

1265
01:16:45,990 --> 01:16:49,560
showing podcasts in your country
on the homepage. This works best

1266
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,440
for international if you combine
this with the location tag, you

1267
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:55,020
get the best geolocation Do you
understand exactly what he's

1268
01:16:55,020 --> 01:16:55,320
saying?

1269
01:16:55,349 --> 01:16:58,379
Nathan G.: He was saying country
tag not Contra. Okay.

1270
01:16:58,410 --> 01:17:01,080
Adam Curry: Yeah. Oh, that's
Yeah, I think you're right. It's

1271
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:04,740
that's autocorrect thanks,
Apple. Country tag. Yes, I think

1272
01:17:04,740 --> 01:17:09,450
you're right. Now the 5000 SATs
from Sam Sethi. Here you go.

1273
01:17:10,890 --> 01:17:17,550
This is for you asking for a
friend. But why? Why would any

1274
01:17:17,550 --> 01:17:21,330
app want to show links via the
content link to external apps,

1275
01:17:21,330 --> 01:17:24,600
we work hard to get users to use
our app. The first thing we

1276
01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:27,360
don't want to show is other
apps. And I still don't

1277
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:29,010
understand the follow idea.

1278
01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:33,060
Nathan G.: I think this is the
first tag not for Sam Sethi.

1279
01:17:33,450 --> 01:17:33,720
Yeah

1280
01:17:37,739 --> 01:17:38,699
Dave Jones: move on moving on.

1281
01:17:38,699 --> 01:17:41,309
Nathan G.: There are more apps
in the ecosystem than just

1282
01:17:41,309 --> 01:17:45,659
podcast players episodes FM is
now one there's other services

1283
01:17:45,659 --> 01:17:48,629
out there and we're going to use
this tag and it's not for the

1284
01:17:48,629 --> 01:17:52,589
podcast players themselves it's
for getting listeners to you the

1285
01:17:52,589 --> 01:17:57,719
way that in the way that
episodes FM is a podcast app

1286
01:17:57,719 --> 01:18:00,419
link tree will you know true
fans will always be on that

1287
01:18:00,419 --> 01:18:00,839
list.

1288
01:18:01,829 --> 01:18:04,679
Dave Jones: Is a funnel is a fun
as a podcast funnel. Yeah

1289
01:18:05,070 --> 01:18:08,400
Adam Curry: 1000 SATs from Dobby
das he says Happy 25th Birthday

1290
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:13,860
RSS Yeah, that's right. It is
21st birthday of RSS. Another

1291
01:18:13,860 --> 01:18:18,630
5000 from San Ceci we do want to
use the transcribe.fm love l dot

1292
01:18:18,630 --> 01:18:22,380
402 Like Adam though I need to
link speaker link to person tag

1293
01:18:22,380 --> 01:18:27,300
which is what we do today. Yes,
that's understood 3333 from

1294
01:18:27,300 --> 01:18:29,460
circus media and other
informative and entertaining

1295
01:18:29,460 --> 01:18:31,830
board meeting thank you for your
courage gentlemen circus media

1296
01:18:32,250 --> 01:18:38,700
and then 13 696 from Burberry
This is an add one weekend to

1297
01:18:38,700 --> 01:18:42,390
bring this 12 Rod stream to life
this is the next contract he's

1298
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:45,840
working on and holy wow we have
covered a ton of ground already

1299
01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,470
we've got a mock up live is lit
sign banners sewn ready to be

1300
01:18:49,470 --> 01:18:53,580
painted camera angles nailed
lighting quote squared away RSS

1301
01:18:53,580 --> 01:18:57,060
feeds have been made. We've got
GIF art screen printed art for T

1302
01:18:57,060 --> 01:18:59,220
shirts. We're going to be
onboarding three bands for this

1303
01:18:59,220 --> 01:19:03,090
show alone and the venue gets a
feed I think he meant split but

1304
01:19:03,090 --> 01:19:07,980
the venue gets a feed maybe they
get a feed I don't know. And he

1305
01:19:07,980 --> 01:19:12,570
sends in another 13 696 Boost
saying that there's going to be

1306
01:19:12,570 --> 01:19:16,890
a goat drive. What's the goat
what's a ghost drive you ask the

1307
01:19:16,890 --> 01:19:20,250
boardroom as he or she would the
most goats murdered by the end

1308
01:19:20,250 --> 01:19:22,500
of the 10 minute round well
winner prize that's on the

1309
01:19:22,500 --> 01:19:26,130
behind the schemes that will be
after no agenda this Sunday live

1310
01:19:26,130 --> 01:19:29,520
so Yeah, whenever you boost the
right amount of goat get

1311
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:34,740
slaughtered. It's a very
friendly show. 5150 from tone

1312
01:19:34,740 --> 01:19:40,170
record, kapow. Thank you,
brother. And let me see. Then I

1313
01:19:40,170 --> 01:19:42,690
hit the limiter. So yeah,
Europe, Dave.

1314
01:19:43,529 --> 01:19:49,949
Dave Jones: Oh, let's see we've
got we got a couple of pay pals.

1315
01:19:50,519 --> 01:19:54,389
We get and they're both real.
They're related. There is a

1316
01:19:55,590 --> 01:19:56,910
Adam Curry: they're in a
relationship.

1317
01:19:57,509 --> 01:20:01,469
Dave Jones: They're in a
relationship for three $300 from

1318
01:20:01,799 --> 01:20:05,639
the boys at blueberry the boys
and girls I believe. Oh, thank

1319
01:20:05,639 --> 01:20:05,729
you.

1320
01:20:06,989 --> 01:20:10,769
Unknown: Sakala 20 is blades on
am Paula.

1321
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:11,670
Adam Curry: Thank you.

1322
01:20:11,730 --> 01:20:15,150
Dave Jones: There is no see
there's no yeah, there's a note.

1323
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:17,250
The note is go podcasting.

1324
01:20:20,010 --> 01:20:23,010
Adam Curry: I gotcha. I gotcha,
gotcha, gotcha. Nice

1325
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:28,260
Dave Jones: and a $30 a month
new subscription from Todd and

1326
01:20:28,260 --> 01:20:29,490
Robin new media show.

1327
01:20:29,759 --> 01:20:33,479
Adam Curry: Oh, thank you boys.
Appreciate that. Yeah. I feel

1328
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:34,679
bad that we rag on him.

1329
01:20:36,810 --> 01:20:38,610
Dave Jones: Now that I know,

1330
01:20:38,909 --> 01:20:41,969
Adam Curry: hey, new media show
we tagged them. Yeah.

1331
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:47,459
Dave Jones: Thanks. Thanks for
that, Rob. I mean, I appreciate

1332
01:20:47,459 --> 01:20:51,599
that. Todd from Northern
Virginia says big central

1333
01:20:51,599 --> 01:20:56,159
Richards 11111 podcast index
website says Dave, I'm

1334
01:20:56,159 --> 01:20:59,249
fascinated by the beef
milkshake. Could you spend 30

1335
01:20:59,249 --> 01:21:04,679
seconds to explain what it is
and most importantly, why 30 is

1336
01:21:04,679 --> 01:21:09,419
the I don't need 30 seconds. It
is the it is three ice cubes.

1337
01:21:09,599 --> 01:21:15,179
This is in a blender. Three Ice
cubes. A cup of milk. A scoop of

1338
01:21:15,239 --> 01:21:22,709
whey protein isolate, and a
scoop of equipped foods. grass

1339
01:21:22,709 --> 01:21:27,599
fed beef protein hydrolyzed beef
protein from equip foods.com

1340
01:21:28,589 --> 01:21:39,119
That is that is the recipe.
Enjoy. Yummy yum Yeah, the the

1341
01:21:39,119 --> 01:21:41,879
equip foods thing is it's
chocolate specifically as

1342
01:21:41,879 --> 01:21:46,139
chocolate. It's, it's a little
pricey, but it's it's high

1343
01:21:46,139 --> 01:21:49,139
quality. Do you fall

1344
01:21:54,869 --> 01:22:01,469
Okay, see, we got Joe Jean
Everett 1111 Small central

1345
01:22:01,469 --> 01:22:02,009
Richards

1346
01:22:02,310 --> 01:22:05,610
Adam Curry: he just says boost.
Thank you very much. Boost.

1347
01:22:06,359 --> 01:22:10,889
Dave Jones: Another one from
Jean Everett 8888. And he says

1348
01:22:10,919 --> 01:22:13,679
that's the fountain he says
boost boost boost. Yes, yes.

1349
01:22:13,679 --> 01:22:19,919
Yes. Boost boost boost. 3333
from Jean Everis as boost.

1350
01:22:20,970 --> 01:22:21,840
Adam Curry: I'm running out.

1351
01:22:22,500 --> 01:22:28,020
Dave Jones: He's on fire. He's
like a countdown or something.

1352
01:22:28,020 --> 01:22:31,170
He's doing like it like three to
one. I'm afraid something's

1353
01:22:31,170 --> 01:22:39,600
gonna happen on the next hack my
computer. Mere Mortals podcast

1354
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,170
2222 roadex. Their true friends.
True fans. He says app

1355
01:22:43,170 --> 01:22:48,450
development must be hard. It is
isn't it Nathan? I was

1356
01:22:48,450 --> 01:22:52,200
showcasing V for V music at my
BTC meetup. And some people

1357
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:55,110
tried searching by category.
Others wanted to play right

1358
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:58,890
away. Others look for non V for
V artists at regrow my hair just

1359
01:22:58,890 --> 01:23:02,880
to pull it out again if I tried
building an app. Yeah. So this

1360
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:06,570
is classic. This is classic
behavior. And I'm sure Nathan

1361
01:23:06,570 --> 01:23:10,770
you you've experienced this.
dozens of times. You get

1362
01:23:10,770 --> 01:23:13,860
everything working perfectly in
your app. It's it's it's it's

1363
01:23:13,860 --> 01:23:18,180
polished, it's working great.
You're like, Hey, you hand it to

1364
01:23:18,180 --> 01:23:20,880
somebody in like, Hey, check
this out. In the first thing

1365
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:23,640
they they tried to do is
something you never anticipated.

1366
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:29,190
And you're like, Oh crap. They
do sometimes. Virtually

1367
01:23:29,189 --> 01:23:34,619
Adam Curry: my job is. Hey, how
can we doesn't do this? Yep.

1368
01:23:36,210 --> 01:23:38,700
Dave Jones: Or you're like,
you're like, Oh, I never thought

1369
01:23:38,700 --> 01:23:42,630
I never even thought that this,
that they would try to type that

1370
01:23:42,630 --> 01:23:43,500
into this then.

1371
01:23:45,449 --> 01:23:48,569
Nathan G.: My, my, my favorite,
that's a that's a classic sort

1372
01:23:48,569 --> 01:23:51,809
of, you know, user research
problem where a designer will

1373
01:23:51,839 --> 01:23:54,239
like oh, and then they'll do
this, they'll do this. And I'm

1374
01:23:54,239 --> 01:23:56,369
like, great. Let's put it in
front of some people. Like let's

1375
01:23:56,369 --> 01:23:58,739
just put the mock ups let's not
build it. And let's just put

1376
01:23:58,739 --> 01:24:01,259
those mock ups in front of you
know, five people and see if

1377
01:24:01,259 --> 01:24:04,289
they do what you expect or
whether your expectations were

1378
01:24:04,289 --> 01:24:08,579
misaligned with the average
person will do exactly and it'll

1379
01:24:08,579 --> 01:24:12,149
it's you know, there's a there's
a gift of some people the

1380
01:24:12,179 --> 01:24:17,759
drinking a glass of water wrong,
like they're licking the side. I

1381
01:24:17,759 --> 01:24:21,569
just posted it in the chat. This
is my, like, favorite UX

1382
01:24:21,569 --> 01:24:22,289
research meme.

1383
01:24:22,619 --> 01:24:26,429
Dave Jones: That's very funny.
Like my favorite is the like the

1384
01:24:26,459 --> 01:24:29,519
the one with the person who
keeps putting all the shapes in

1385
01:24:29,519 --> 01:24:35,999
the square hole. Yes, exactly.
Like this misaligned, would you

1386
01:24:35,999 --> 01:24:39,149
say misaligned incentives,
misaligned expectations,

1387
01:24:39,209 --> 01:24:41,759
expectation, this aligned
expectations? Totally.

1388
01:24:41,820 --> 01:24:43,710
Adam Curry: I do think that
that's great. I

1389
01:24:43,710 --> 01:24:46,110
Nathan G.: lean a lot into that
when I am designing to say, you

1390
01:24:46,110 --> 01:24:49,410
know, the user is going to
expect this to behave this way.

1391
01:24:49,620 --> 01:24:53,010
I'm going to, like use that to
my advantage.

1392
01:24:55,949 --> 01:24:57,989
Dave Jones: That needs to be a
teacher of podcasting. 2.0

1393
01:24:57,989 --> 01:25:05,429
misaligned expectations Jean
been 20 to 22 He says yesterday

1394
01:25:05,429 --> 01:25:09,119
if I think sharing the data for
an LLM is fine. Okay, well,

1395
01:25:09,359 --> 01:25:10,739
cool. Yes. I gave it to him.
Yeah.

1396
01:25:12,359 --> 01:25:14,339
Adam Curry: That's a very famous
company. Actually. It's

1397
01:25:15,539 --> 01:25:17,939
Dave Jones: we can't say it they
don't they want to keep it on

1398
01:25:17,939 --> 01:25:22,679
the download. So I didn't say
anything. No, you know, we can

1399
01:25:22,979 --> 01:25:29,159
say the name. Wow. Yeah, I asked
specifically, and I was like,

1400
01:25:29,249 --> 01:25:33,779
alright, and they were like, no,
let's not say that. Oh, okay. Do

1401
01:25:33,779 --> 01:25:37,649
you never 5555 they found and he
says boost boost boost. Yeah,

1402
01:25:37,649 --> 01:25:42,089
this is a countdown to get we
got a 7777 There's gotta be a

1403
01:25:42,089 --> 01:25:45,959
6666 in here somewhere. I
probably that was dangerously

1404
01:25:45,959 --> 01:25:51,149
close to the mark of say, oh,
no, no, no. Mere Mortals podcast

1405
01:25:51,149 --> 01:25:54,419
essential Richard's a small one.
He says oops. Forgot to boost

1406
01:25:54,419 --> 01:25:56,969
last week love what found is
done with incorporating social

1407
01:25:56,969 --> 01:25:59,909
features into podcasting. It was
a lonelier time when they

1408
01:25:59,909 --> 01:26:03,479
weren't around. I used to feel
like I came into p 2.0. Late but

1409
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:06,479
now I can be an old timer to
start my sentences with I

1410
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:13,259
remember when feels good bit
history. When I was a kid, yeah,

1411
01:26:13,259 --> 01:26:19,409
back then a day. Let's say Oh,
user, this this boost of 105

1412
01:26:19,409 --> 01:26:26,009
sets is from user 213988710. I'm
fountain. On fountain Yes. And

1413
01:26:26,009 --> 01:26:28,589
he says the trusted. Okay.

1414
01:26:28,739 --> 01:26:32,159
Adam Curry: All right. Thank
you. You are trusted. Yes.

1415
01:26:32,190 --> 01:26:35,220
Dave Jones: Thank and Thank you
Jean Everett for that 4444 boost

1416
01:26:35,250 --> 01:26:42,120
of the see and there it is 6666
There it is. He says booster to

1417
01:26:44,670 --> 01:26:49,500
Adam Curry: Yes, I always say
boost the toot read it was it.

1418
01:26:50,190 --> 01:26:53,880
Retweet the tweet booster to
slash the ex? Na.

1419
01:26:54,810 --> 01:26:57,570
Dave Jones: Oh, and here we go.
delimiter commentator, a blogger

1420
01:26:57,600 --> 01:27:02,910
23,000 SATs through fountain. He
says howdy David Adam. Please

1421
01:27:02,910 --> 01:27:09,000
inform your audience by visiting
my cartoon blog at www dot CSB

1422
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,380
dot lol and encourage them to
follow me on Twitter or x.com at

1423
01:27:13,380 --> 01:27:17,490
CSB. All followers will have the
privilege of asking me up to

1424
01:27:17,490 --> 01:27:19,950
three questions daily. You see
is

1425
01:27:20,970 --> 01:27:24,690
Adam Curry: a rare, rare self
promotion. rare one.

1426
01:27:25,349 --> 01:27:27,479
Dave Jones: What a special
privilege.

1427
01:27:29,130 --> 01:27:31,590
Adam Curry: Second prize six
questions

1428
01:27:35,250 --> 01:27:36,750
Dave Jones: let's see. Oh,

1429
01:27:36,750 --> 01:27:40,710
Adam Curry: we have a late late
comer both booths from Jay Moon

1430
01:27:40,980 --> 01:27:44,670
10,033 sets. He says I was going
to tally boost you but I looked

1431
01:27:44,670 --> 01:27:49,950
at the fees. Nevermind. Yes.
Thank you. Yeah,

1432
01:27:49,950 --> 01:27:54,000
Dave Jones: you feel you know,
oh, this is great. I sent so I

1433
01:27:54,000 --> 01:28:00,150
sent my I sent my brother in
law. He he did my personal

1434
01:28:00,150 --> 01:28:04,080
taxes. So I was like well let me
acid let me pay you. He's like

1435
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:05,970
go you don't have to pay me. I
was like, No, I'm gonna pay you.

1436
01:28:06,420 --> 01:28:08,790
I said let me let me just send
you some bitcoin. And he was

1437
01:28:08,790 --> 01:28:11,340
like, Okay, sure. So I got into
that he got on the strike app.

1438
01:28:11,850 --> 01:28:16,680
And then so and I sent it to him
I sent him like $200 with a

1439
01:28:16,680 --> 01:28:21,750
Bitcoin. And like I did that
yesterday. And within like five

1440
01:28:21,750 --> 01:28:29,130
minutes it was down like 5% I
was like, it's usually not like

1441
01:28:29,130 --> 01:28:29,400
this. I'm

1442
01:28:29,399 --> 01:28:33,029
Adam Curry: sorry. Buy more buy
more. It's up above 70 Again, so

1443
01:28:33,299 --> 01:28:33,929
really?

1444
01:28:35,039 --> 01:28:38,429
Dave Jones: Like this is this is
where this is where you your

1445
01:28:38,429 --> 01:28:38,849
natural

1446
01:28:38,850 --> 01:28:44,880
Adam Curry: great isn't a great,
don't you love? Oh,

1447
01:28:45,870 --> 01:28:48,870
Dave Jones: see? Did you get the
one from chyron

1448
01:28:49,529 --> 01:28:52,589
Adam Curry: blueberry said 2222
the venue we're streaming from

1449
01:28:52,589 --> 01:28:55,319
Taylor sound is gonna get set up
with their own RSS feed to

1450
01:28:55,319 --> 01:28:58,949
release concerts on Okay, great.
That's good. That's what he was

1451
01:28:58,949 --> 01:29:00,089
talking about. Nice.

1452
01:29:00,690 --> 01:29:05,370
Dave Jones: Okay. See, I'm
trying to make sure that I get I

1453
01:29:05,370 --> 01:29:09,540
think was that I think I had
some I think I had some come in.

1454
01:29:10,200 --> 01:29:15,150
After. Yeah, we came this came
in after the delimiter I think

1455
01:29:16,619 --> 01:29:18,719
Adam Curry: I didn't see
anything after the delimiter I

1456
01:29:18,719 --> 01:29:19,679
can double check but

1457
01:29:19,710 --> 01:29:23,580
Dave Jones: I got one from
debased ghost. I don't have that

1458
01:29:23,580 --> 01:29:28,110
one. Can the music and this is
11,000 says Can the music in the

1459
01:29:28,110 --> 01:29:31,500
podcast index be made available
to DJ in the same way

1460
01:29:31,500 --> 01:29:35,280
SoundCloud? Title and Apple
music tracks are bonus points.

1461
01:29:35,280 --> 01:29:38,040
If a recorded DJ set
automatically timestamps tracks

1462
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:42,150
to polish and music podcast with
song links. Double Dog points of

1463
01:29:42,150 --> 01:29:46,890
algorithm enabled streaming sets
while DJing in the app will mean

1464
01:29:47,370 --> 01:29:51,450
yeah, all this is yeah, it's all
possible. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

1465
01:29:51,659 --> 01:29:54,359
Adam Curry: But is he asking for
a DJing app that allows you to

1466
01:29:54,359 --> 01:29:56,699
DJ and mix stuff?

1467
01:29:58,829 --> 01:30:02,489
Dave Jones: I don't know Maybe
you can tell us more way

1468
01:30:02,519 --> 01:30:05,699
Adam Curry: yes, the longer
boost with a higher amount

1469
01:30:08,879 --> 01:30:09,389
earlier

1470
01:30:11,670 --> 01:30:14,070
Dave Jones: and then we had to
know another one from Karen

1471
01:30:14,280 --> 01:30:17,550
2022. I think these are just
ones that I missed. Now I love

1472
01:30:17,550 --> 01:30:19,740
the two of you together
analyzing the high level POC

1473
01:30:19,740 --> 01:30:22,620
stuff helps make sense of things
that are distracting and making

1474
01:30:22,620 --> 01:30:25,050
a more active effort to support
v for the projects like

1475
01:30:25,050 --> 01:30:28,230
blueberry show, book testing
true fans and chatting with App

1476
01:30:28,230 --> 01:30:31,710
devs. Like Jason I believe Eric
D for V will win regardless but

1477
01:30:31,710 --> 01:30:35,100
don't want my complacency to
demoralize actual builders and

1478
01:30:35,100 --> 01:30:37,320
Adam Curry: devs. There you go.
That's what we need a lot more

1479
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:38,010
of that thinking.

1480
01:30:38,790 --> 01:30:40,920
Dave Jones: And we got some
monthlies. We get Christopher

1481
01:30:40,920 --> 01:30:45,060
hyperbaric $10 Thank you,
Christopher. Mitch Downey $10

1482
01:30:45,540 --> 01:30:51,570
run for cover Mitch heads down.
Terry Keller $5 Chris Cowan $5

1483
01:30:51,570 --> 01:30:57,360
Damon cast Jack $15 Paul
Saltzman $22.22 Yaren Rosenstein

1484
01:30:57,630 --> 01:31:02,640
$1 Jerry Derek J. Vickery, the
best name in podcasting. $21,

1485
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:06,390
Jeremy gerdts, $5 and Michael
Hall $5.50. And that's our

1486
01:31:06,390 --> 01:31:06,660
group.

1487
01:31:06,689 --> 01:31:09,359
Adam Curry: Thank you all for
supporting podcasting 2.0 You're

1488
01:31:09,359 --> 01:31:12,329
not just supporting the podcast,
but you're really supporting the

1489
01:31:12,329 --> 01:31:16,739
entire project. Dave and I get
none of this, we just put it

1490
01:31:16,739 --> 01:31:19,169
onto the node for opening up
channels for people who need

1491
01:31:19,169 --> 01:31:23,339
liquidity. Hit me up if you need
that on podcast, index dot

1492
01:31:23,339 --> 01:31:25,619
social, I just got another
request. So make sure you do

1493
01:31:25,619 --> 01:31:28,229
that. That's what it's there
for. And if you go to podcast

1494
01:31:28,229 --> 01:31:30,749
index.org down at the bottom,
there's two red donate buttons

1495
01:31:30,749 --> 01:31:34,679
one for your pay pal for Fiat
fun coupons. We'd love those.

1496
01:31:34,949 --> 01:31:37,739
And tally coin if the fees
aren't too high, but what we

1497
01:31:37,739 --> 01:31:41,789
really want you to do is go to
new podcast apps.com and grab

1498
01:31:41,789 --> 01:31:45,989
yourself a modern podcast app,
fill up that wallet and boost us

1499
01:31:46,589 --> 01:31:49,379
boosts us through the modern
system. Everybody wins that way.

1500
01:31:49,379 --> 01:31:55,349
Thank you so much for supporting
podcasting. 2.0 and Nathan sorry

1501
01:31:55,349 --> 01:31:59,009
that we're little short today
but I think we we got a lot of

1502
01:31:59,009 --> 01:32:01,259
good info out of you and a good
product launch.

1503
01:32:01,770 --> 01:32:02,520
Nathan G.: Yeah, appreciate it.

1504
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:04,560
Unknown: We're gonna launch

1505
01:32:05,670 --> 01:32:08,940
Dave Jones: my Tech's this
season day job so it's a

1506
01:32:08,940 --> 01:32:11,400
deadline day to day so I gotta
get back to race. No

1507
01:32:11,399 --> 01:32:13,739
Adam Curry: worries. All right.
Nathan, have yourself a great

1508
01:32:13,739 --> 01:32:17,039
weekend. I'm sure you come on
after somebody buys this and

1509
01:32:17,039 --> 01:32:25,319
then fires. So we'll be seeing
you soon. No doubt. Dave take

1510
01:32:25,319 --> 01:32:28,229
care of the corporations.
They're in Alabama. Thank you

1511
01:32:28,229 --> 01:32:31,559
very much boardroom and
everybody have a great weekend.

1512
01:32:32,639 --> 01:32:36,839
Thanks, guys. See you. Okay, all
right, brothers. We'll be back

1513
01:32:36,839 --> 01:32:39,659
next Friday right here
podcasting 2.0 to bring you all

1514
01:32:39,659 --> 01:32:42,179
the latest it's going down the
past to present the future and

1515
01:32:42,179 --> 01:32:43,649
the now of podcasting.

1516
01:33:00,180 --> 01:33:04,740
Unknown: You have been listening
to podcasting 2.0 Visit podcast

1517
01:33:04,740 --> 01:33:07,500
index.org for more information.

1518
01:33:07,830 --> 01:33:10,290
Adam Curry: Go podcast said
you're not doing it

1519
01:33:10,290 --> 01:33:12,540
Dave Jones: right. I'm holding
it wrong.