Podcasting 2.0 for June 6, 2025, Episode
223, Messy Desks.
Hey everybody, what's going on?
Is the world in turmoil?
Are you confused about what's happening?
Who cares?
It's time to talk podcasting.
Of course, the future of podcasting, everything happening
right now with the podcast industrial complex, and
all the stuff Dave and I can just
get away with discussing at a board meeting.
We are the only boardroom that Apple executives
actually should attend.
I'm Adam Curry, here in the heart of
the Texas Hill Country, and in Alabama, the
man who turned your interstitials into bumpers and
free rolls.
Say hello to my friend on the other
end, the one, the only, Mr. Dave Jones.
Nice timing, Dreb.
Dave, a heart right in the middle of
the intro.
I think Dreb timed it.
He got a little heavenly boost there.
Perfect timing.
We were swept off to heaven.
I was.
Whoa!
Well, I should read it now.
Pre-show boost.
It's a weight loss update.
I'm down 20 pounds.
No, 15.5 pounds lost in 53 days.
Approximately two pounds a week.
Consistent walking five miles a day.
Haven't missed 10k steps a day in those
53 days.
Go podcasting!
The question is, what is he listening to
while he's doing his steps?
Us.
I would hope so.
That's what podcasting's good for.
He's going through the whole back catalogue.
How you doing, brother Dave?
Messy.
Yeah, I'm messy too.
I'm real messy.
You know what the messiest thing was?
It can't be coincidence that we get the
President Trump and Elon Musk doing a WWE
mock fight.
Like, okay, I'm on to this nonsense.
But today, Grok could no longer code.
It just completely forgot how.
It was freezing.
It was stopping.
Would write half a script.
And then it would do it unformatted.
I start a new conversation.
Just completely off its rocker.
No good.
And you know, when I get and when
I get to that at all, sometimes you'll
just stop and just in the middle of
writing something, it'll stop and you say, hey,
you stop.
I'm sorry.
And they'll go on and stop again.
But just making really odd choices.
You know, like I figured out the best
way to change a huge Python script is
to ask it to write a shell script
and edit the original script, like with sed
or awk.
Wait, wait, wait, wait.
So you're saying that the best way to
get Grok to write Python is to ask
it to write a shell script to write
the Python?
No, no, no.
To fix, which would be hilarious.
In debugging Python, I don't know how many
lines of code I have.
But in debugging that, it rarely ever makes
it to the end.
It just stops and it starts to make
triple quote comment errors and syntax that just
can't do a large script.
So I say, hey, the changes you want
to make, just write a shell script with
sed and awk, whatever you want to use
and change it.
And that actually works.
But then.
Wait, I'm totally confused.
You're, you're, you're saying.
I know, it's great, isn't it?
I don't understand what's happening.
Okay.
You're saying that sed and awk to make
the changes?
Yes, because if you want to wait for
Grok to write to write the whole Python
script again, if it even gets to the
end, it'll take 15 minutes.
Well, that is the weirdest thing.
Okay.
I don't want to hijack this, but me
and Alex and I have been talking offline
about our, our struggles with or in struggles
and successes with LLMs as far as Rust
code goes.
And, and the, I made the comment this
morning that that we just, we live in
strange times.
This is true.
When you're having to ask like, like Gemini,
he was, he said, Gemini is great at
Rust macros, you know, but it can't tell
you, it cannot tell you, but Gemini cannot
tell you how much protein is in a
half pound of ground beef.
Well, you know, and it's the other way
around too.
Oh, the open AI 01 can, can nail
the ground beef, you know, but it sucks
at macros.
Like what, what are we doing?
Yeah.
Well, what are we doing?
You're absolutely right.
But so, so Grok is just slow at
writing this Python code and the long, let
me just see how many lines of code.
Let me just tell you how many lines
of code this script is.
It's a setup script.
It's the one that, you know, that sets
up a streaming station from a, from an
RSS feed.
All right.
So it's your run book.
It's my run book.
Yeah.
Thank you.
That's a good way to look at it.
It's my run books.
Let me just take a look at this.
I'll tell you how big this is.
This is lines of code.
Wait, that's not, can't be the right one.
I don't have any pants on right now.
Okay.
That is the ISO of the day.
Could someone please, could someone please ISO that
for me?
I'm telling you, I'm in a risk.
It's a mess over here.
I'm now, I'm deep pants and now I've
shorted myself.
So I'm shorted now.
So this is 1,119 lines of code.
Whoa, that's a lot of code.
Well, it's a setup and it includes, it's
a template, right?
It creates two, it creates three separate scripts.
Okay.
A liquid soap script, a parser script, and
an updater script.
And then it does a couple other things.
So yeah, that's, that's a reasonable amount of
code.
And so, so, so, and this was working
and then I find out, okay, do you
mind if I tell you the whole story?
Cause that'll, I think it'll actually make you
laugh.
Yes.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
I will stop interrupting.
Okay.
So I had this thing running.
It takes an, and this is podcasting related.
It takes an RSS feed.
Uh, that is a, an act like a
public publisher feed, basically an aggregated feed.
So it does all kinds of different episodes.
It downloads and caches what it needs to.
And it turns that into a, a nice
cast stream based upon what is the newest
episode.
And it goes down the list.
And if a new episode pops up, it
plays that next.
So you have kind of a fresh radio
field to it.
The serendipity is fantastic when it works.
And the idea is when it gets to
the end of the playlist, if it doesn't
have any new more episodes, mark everything is
not played and refresh the playlist and start
over again.
Okay.
So this was, and then there's a whole
metadata up.
Actually, it's important to know that you cannot
rely on MP3 files for MP3 data.
So I was taking the title and description
from the item tag in the RSS feed
and that I was pushing to the ice
cast server as, as the metadata.
So you can see what you're listening to.
You with me?
I'm with you.
Okay.
So turns out, cause, and the, it was
replaying episodes and like, what is going wrong?
Why is it not marking these episodes as
played?
And I would like to guess I'm not,
I'm going to stay quiet, but I would
like to guess before you tell me what
the problem was.
Yeah.
Go for it.
It was a file permission issue.
Oh no, no, no.
I woke up this morning and the almighty
intelligence gave me the answer.
And I went to look and it was
true.
I went to look and it was true.
Okay.
So it had determined that the best way
to, um, now there's always these little nuances
with title mapping, you know, so you have
got to match the file.
So it downloads the file, gives it its
own special name, and then it maps it
to the title and then you're good to
go.
But sometimes the title might have some extraneous
characters.
So there's a lot of rejects in there.
So you don't get this whole, this whole
long URL or chopped off bits.
It was instead of the smart way to
do it, which is, is this file, which
I have in my file system playing?
Yes.
Put it in the played episodes file.
It was mapping the file it had on
his file system to a title and then
trying to match the title back to put
that into the played episodes file.
So it was, it was doing the stupidest
thing in the world.
And I, and I say, why are you
doing this?
Oh yeah, that wasn't very smart.
Let me do it by episode.
So that's where it started.
Are you with me?
I'm here.
You are going to be a Python coder
by the time this is finished.
Well, so teaching you, this is teaching you
how to code.
Well, yeah, I'm, I'm basically now coding it
myself because all I said was, could you
please just change this from mapping URL mapping
to episode mapping?
Oh my gosh.
It was three hours.
It's doing this, it's doing that.
It forgets how to parse a feed.
You know, it's, it's written its own feed
parsing logic.
I said, there's the feed parser module that
you've imported into Python.
Use that.
I mean, it just makes all these decisions.
So then I'm like, screw it.
I go over to Manus.
Well, Manus was a man is my anus.
This was a disaster.
That thing's a disaster.
Cancel that subscription.
Then I go to chat GPT, chat GPT,
super fast at giving me everything wrong.
Every single time it did the same thing.
It went off and built its own feed
parser, which doesn't work.
I said, I didn't ask you to change
that.
I said, change this.
I didn't ask you to write a new
liquid soap file.
And it just does that stuff.
It sucks.
It's all no good.
I'm learning to code.
I'm going to do it myself.
It is no good.
This is great.
I love this.
This is awesome.
It's not awesome.
It's very frustrating.
Well, I mean, I'm over it now.
I know I take my breaks when it
works.
I take a praise break.
I say praise, praise God, praise the, the,
the almighty intelligence for making it work.
I've prayed over this.
Like, please, okay, please just give me, give
me the insight into this.
So now I'm just in the code doing
it myself.
It's so stupid.
This is, and it happened the minute Elon
got into a tiff with the president.
That's when everything went downhill.
This, uh, I just, I just, I'm sorry
for laughing.
No, it's okay.
It's completely laughable.
That's the whole thing.
It's so stupid.
Well, so I've, the reason that my desk
is a mess and I didn't have pants
on just second ago.
Stop.
I don't want to know.
Here's here's TMI, TMI, TMI, TMI.
By the way, expect an email from me
that says you better send me one Bitcoin
or I'm going to release the video that
I recorded of you.
All right.
That's coming.
I know what you did.
That's the one.
That's me.
That's my email.
I took over your webcam.
Um, yeah.
So is, uh, I built, I built an,
a local LLM server this week.
Why, why, why?
Well, uh, many reasons, many reasons.
One of which is I've, I found a
sort of, I found a workflow that kind
of works because here, here's, here's what's happening.
I'm struggling to get coding time on index
on the, on the, on the podcast.
I know, I know.
And, uh, because, uh, just, you know, I
essentially have three jobs now.
So, um, I'm struggling to find that, that
time in my life.
And so I thought, okay, there's, I'm, I'm
going to attempt to put, um, to put
LLMs to use for this.
For, for, for, uh, for index stuff, uh,
for anything, for anything, for anything.
I gotcha.
So I installed open web UI on its
old Mac mini.
Uh, it's like an M one Mac mini.
And, um, do you, do you know open
web UI to use that?
Um, I don't know.
Tell me.
It's very cool.
It's just an open source, uh, very elegant
web interface that to, into a Llama.
Right.
Oh, no.
Start nine uses that.
Exactly.
And you can look, you can, you can
load all of your, all of your different
models.
And yes, I know exactly what it is.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I put, I put that on this
M one and then, uh, shared it through
tail scale so I can have it on
my phone and that kind of thing.
And, and out and about when I'm, when
I'm not in the house and then, uh,
so this like it's this, all this whole
getup is on my desk.
Now I had just on this, I've got
two machines in front of me and the
keyboard was detached, all this mess.
So I got, but the M so the,
what I'm doing is I'm using, uh, one
of the code specific models whenever I have
a, because these it's, it's bad being, I
don't know if it's ADHD or what it
is, but it's, I'll have this killer thought
about a new tag, a new, a new,
uh, code idea for the index, um, or
for podcast in general, I'll have all these
ideas.
And if, and I've always struggled to keep
notes because sometimes, sometimes you have to flesh
this stuff out.
And so I'm like, I'm like on a
walk.
I'm walking the dog or I take walks
at work during my day job and I'll
be on a walk and, and I'll have
this great flash of, of an idea or
in, you know, and I, if, if I
do not stop and, and put it down
and, you know, in pen and paper or
whatever, at that moment, it'll be gone and
I'll never get it back.
Like, it's just the way my mind works.
And so I thought, okay, I've got, I
just, anytime I have a flash of brilliance
about something, I'm going to throw it into
the LLM, whether it's code or anything else.
And I'm just going to say, um, you
know, write, write a pro write a function
that does so-and-so just some sort
of thing that I can get my, get
it to be saved in perpetuity.
And it'll give me sort of like this
first pass sanity check on whether or not
this idea I have works.
And, uh, so far it's been working pretty
good.
Like, um, you know, I had, I had
an idea for how, um, I tried to
do some work on the new aggregator a
couple of days ago, and I had an
idea of how to structure the, of how
to write the rust struck structures that are
going to contain the SQL inserts.
And so I was going to, uh, it
needed to be sort of like a dynamic
structure, uh, that would then get serialized.
And so I just, I'm like, I'm like,
okay, I think I can do it this
way.
And I just got in there on my,
I was actually on my phone and I
was like, just write this, write a, write
a, uh, function.
Wait, what do you, what do you use
on your phone to do that?
What program, what app do you use to
use?
Oh, I see.
Okay.
Gotcha.
And, uh, and I'm like, just write this
in that.
And then I'm like, okay, I'll figure out
what it did later and if it's even
useful.
And then I'll figure out how to like
mod take that because here's one thing I
have found out with these coding LLMs is
if you tell it to write a function,
it is way better than if you tell
it to write a whole piece of software
or a whole script or something like that.
Yeah, exactly.
Because it has zero intelligence.
It doesn't know how to string the pieces
together that you as a beautifully made human
can do in your head.
And you could, even before you write it
on paper.
Absolutely.
Yep.
But, um, it's working.
A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
It's working.
Okay.
And it's keeping my ideas because I like
the way open web UI works because it's
got like sort of your list of things
you've done and on the sidebar there.
Hmm.
Yeah.
The things you've asked it to do.
Yeah.
Sure.
And this, I'll say like, uh, here's a,
I need, uh, I'll give it a URL
and say like based on this format of
the podcasting, uh, namespace documentation for this tag,
I want to write another tag that has
these property that has these attributes and these,
this possible node that, and, and, you know,
just have it like spit out a thing
where I can come back later and just
have like a template ready to go.
So that for that kind of stuff, I
think it's like, it's actually helping my life,
but I mean, we're only in week one,
so who knows where that goes after this.
I don't know, but it's, it's been an
adventure and open web UI is, I think,
I don't think I'll ever be paying for
any of this stuff anymore.
I mean, it's just not worth the money.
It's so expensive.
And, and I don't, I don't see what,
I mean, I guess you could get some
added value over like added value over stable
diffusion for something like mid journey maybe.
But even that, I mean, I was running
stable diffusion locally and it's really good now,
like own the local LLMs. It's a little
slow.
Sure.
You know what I've been noticing?
Um, cause I'm in a unique position with,
uh, with no agenda, the no agenda art
generator.
Mm.
So we get for every episode.
So twice a week between 15 and 30
submissions from art, which 90% sadly is
now AI generated.
The real artists, anyone who does Photoshop, they've
gone, they don't even listen anymore.
They've rage quit.
They suck.
Oh yeah.
It's it's, it's, it is truly horrible.
It's the saddest thing, but there it is.
And you know, people are either like Darren
O'Neill were convinced he's even submitting under
a pseudonym because you know, we were, we
were like angry at him for submitting too
much.
And what we're seeing is there's no more
white.
There's no more black.
A lot more is now kind of cartoonish
and I'm detecting model collapse.
I think this is model collapse.
I think it's, it's generating things based upon
the stuff that's out there.
And it's just degrading.
I mean, I really think this is happening
and this has to be happening with everything
else.
I think the problem is people are using
this stuff in production and where, whereas like,
so, you know, we're developing, uh, uh, this
feature for Godcaster.
And I needed some, some sample, just like,
uh, call them what we have bumpers in,
you know, audio inserts, whatever you want, just
things like, you know, Hey, thanks for listening
to the show.
That kind of thing.
So I needed some of those.
And, um, and so I wanted to just,
I'm like, I don't care what these really
sound like.
I just want to be able to tell
them apart.
I need something that says, uh, this is
clip one.
This is clip two.
This is, you know, post-roll two, this
is post-roll three.
I just needed some of that kind of
stuff.
I liked your AI that you use for
that.
Yeah.
And I'm like, okay, well just give me
some sort of AI that can sound at
least intelligible and, uh, you know, and, and
give and just pump out a few of
these things.
Right.
But they're only for testing.
Like this is never going to go into
any, right, right, right.
But it's getting sucked up somewhere though.
Yeah.
And, and then P but people are putting
this all over, you know, podcasts and everything,
and then it just gets sucked right back
into the model on the next, on the
next go around at some point.
I mean, it's, it's that it's classic model
collapse.
They're going to be training AI on AI
output and none of it's labeled.
So you don't know it's AI output, you
know?
So I don't know what, I mean, yeah,
I totally believe that when, when, you know,
you know that there's no way that this
is not the case that Anthropic and OpenAI
and Google and all of them have sucked
up all of the artwork off NodeGen to
ArtGenerator.
Yep.
Of course, of course they have.
And they're sucking up AI art back into
their AI model.
Yep.
It's entropy and motion.
Yes.
It's complete collapse.
I mean, even if you just go look
at it now, it's crazy.
Like, oh no, you can see the degradation,
the only, and of course it's all the
free stuff.
And then, you know, someone comes along and
says, oh, there's this new model.
And then they use that model and you
see that degrade.
It's, it's to me, it's just like, this
is obviously happening.
It's very obvious.
Yeah, I agree, man.
And then I'm like, oh man, thank you
God that I know Dave Jones, someone who
actually can code.
No, you're going to be a coder by
the time this is done.
I'm going to be a Python expert.
That's for sure.
I'm really getting there.
Once I get my brackets closing right.
You're going to be pushing modules up to
PIP.
PIPX baby, because you know, PIP, you have
all kinds of permission issues with, you're going
to install this worldwide.
Don't do it.
Use PIPX or whatever.
Oh yeah.
That's right.
You glow.
Don't do global.
Yeah.
Don't run as rude.
Yeah.
Don't run as rude.
Yeah.
I think like, I think like Rust, Rust
is great in an LLM because for, I
mean, not, it's not perfect.
Nothing is, but it's one of the better
languages for LLMs. I think because it's a
very strict language.
It's, it's a highly strict language.
It's, it's strict.
It uses strict typing.
Like the nurse ratchet of languages.
Yes, exactly.
And the stricter the language, the better that
LLMs can sort of handle it because it's
just following a syntax at that point.
But you know, and that's what they're good
at.
They're good at syntax.
It's sort of like, uh, I don't know
if you ever were, were a Dungeons and
Dragons person, but.
No, I would say there's no risk of
me being that.
Yeah.
D so D and D fourth edition was
considered to, you know, so what happens a
lot of times with, with, with D and
D is that video games will take the
D and D rules and just use them
as the, as the algorithm for the, for
the game, for the video game.
Well, D and D fourth edition was great
for video games because it was very strict
and very, uh, it's, there was a lot
of stacking of rules that went on and,
but humans found it very difficult.
Um, because it was like this very complicated,
uh, set of, um, like almost protocols that
you had to follow.
And, but, but video games were loved it,
but humans didn't.
And it seems like it's in, it seems
like that's the way it is with LLMs.
When it comes to coding, the stricter, the
language, the farther you're going to get in
a decent way with an LLM, if it's
something like with not with non-strict typing,
something like Python or PHP or something like
that, it's just going to run off the
rails so fast or JavaScript, you know, you're,
you're, you're gonna, at some point, you're just
going to fall off a cliff once it
gets complicated, complex enough, because then you just
can't even, you can't even follow the return
values correctly.
Yeah.
It was a mess.
Well, there you have it.
Daniel says the last time Adam learned to
code, he invented podcasting.
And now, thank you.
There's a point there.
That was, that was Apple script, the most
undocumented scripting language in history.
Could never, could never find a somewhere where
it told me how to do it.
Well, I mean, that's not that much different
than Apple's iTunes namespace, which leads to a
404 page.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, by the way, you know, we, we've
been talking about this on no agenda.
Oh, big news, big news, everybody.
Okay.
This is fantastic.
No agenda.
We'll very soon as, as soon as the
strike business wallet, whatever thing is approved, we
will be accepting streaming payments and boosts.
Finally.
And the way all these years, the way
this went down is amazing because, you know,
Dvorak, he just never wanted Bitcoin to touch
our LLC, LLC, LLC.
That's like LLM, LLC.
Where am I?
Oh, you know, we don't want any tax
issues.
Right.
And so there's, you know, and I've been
telling him for years, like, look, there's all
this legit stuff now.
And then, you know, Trump became president.
And a part of it, I think, is
Dvorak's just mad that every single time I
told him to buy Bitcoin, he didn't.
Even when I told him at $30,000,
I said, buy a Bitcoin.
If you lose money, I'll pay you the
difference.
You know, so what do we got?
105.
So he's just mad.
He's mad in general, just mad.
He's very sour about it.
And so, you know, when Strike came out
and then Strike was accepting, you know, payments
from Fountain through Ellen URL, I'm like, OK,
this works.
It's legit.
You can send it to the bank account
on the same day it comes in.
You can sell it.
They keep track of it.
You know, there'll be no capital gains.
You sell it right away.
It's all going to be OK.
It's going to be OK.
Then, bless his heart, some producer pops up
and says, oh, hold on a second, Dave.
This has been happening more often with...
We're not recording.
No, we're not.
No, we're recording.
But CleanFeed, from time to time, just decides
to just change interfaces.
I heard the switch.
You heard the switch?
Yeah.
And we're back.
So it just decides to hold on a
second.
What is going on here?
This is this is very bad.
So some producer sends an email, says, hey,
I want to I want to send a
big donation.
You know, like I think we have the
Ph.D. promotion running.
That was a thousand bucks.
And he says, but I want to send
it in Bitcoin.
So I say, hold on.
So I forward this email to Dvorak.
Now, he once told I'm going to have
to out this guy because otherwise the story
is no good.
Tom Merritt.
We know Tom Merritt.
What's his tech show called again?
Is it just Daily Tech News or something
like that?
I think it is.
Tech Today or something.
So years ago, years and years ago, Dvorak
was talking about the value for value model.
And he says, you know, we take checks,
we take cash, we take gold coins, we'll
take whatever, whatever, whatever people want to send
us.
And Tom Merritt famously said, oh, no, I
don't want to take checks.
Oh, no, that just feels wrong.
And so we'd always laugh about that.
So what's wrong with that?
Checks are fantastic.
We have a whole stack of three dollar
checks from people.
It's fantastic.
And so I put in this email, you
don't want to be the modern day version
of Tom Merritt, do you?
Boom, boom.
He went right for it, went approved.
Good to go.
That's the best part of that story.
Exactly.
So that's going to happen.
Such a simple like it's such a simple.
So a friend of ours, he he's like
he's a how would you describe what he
does?
He's like a.
Do I know this friend?
No, no, no, no.
A friend of mine and Melissa.
Oh, OK.
He he he's like he's like a counselor,
a therapist guy.
But he went but he did sort of
like his I don't know what they call
this, not residency, but he did his his
initial work out of school at a like
a substance abuse recovery center.
And he said he'd been talking to this
guy for just, you know, for like a
couple of weeks.
They just just not clicking, not getting through.
And he finally said one day he was
talking to him and he was like he's
like, man.
He told him he was like, you're just
a train wreck.
And he said the guy just like stopped
and just like dropped his head.
And he's like, yeah, yeah, I am a
train wreck.
And from then on, it's like changed the
guy's life.
And he just it works.
Yeah, it works.
It works.
Just this one little statement, this one little
sort of cliche, you know, cliche.
You don't want to be the next Tom
Merritt.
OK, you got me done.
We're done.
So my point was, so we've been talking
about all these complaints about Apple's update, updating
policy or their polling or whatever they're doing
for podcasts to get into.
To get into the before they surface on
on Apple, on the Apple podcast app.
And after we had this conversation last time,
which you'll remember fondly, I'm sure.
Oh, yeah, I've thought about it all week.
Yeah, right.
In fact, Spurlock posted.
Right after the show, and if you saw
that he posted because we were talking about
Megyn Kelly, let me see if I can
find that on a post about Jake Tapper.
Yeah, no, no, no.
Chuck Todd.
That's it.
I got him.
Let me see if I can find it.
Spurlock, you post a lot.
He does.
Yeah.
So it was it was it's so funny.
I wish I could find it quickly.
So Chuck Todd on the Todd Chuck Todd
cast, he said, he's like, you know, the
if anyone knows any of the engineers over
over at Apple, I really, really do.
I just pasted it into the.
Oh, you got into the boardroom.
You got it.
OK.
And let me play it so people can
hear it, because it's pretty funny.
Here we go.
Got all these things.
You can hear us anywhere you want.
YouTube, we'd love for you to subscribe to
the channel.
Everything else, Spotify, Apple, you name it.
And if Apple isn't uploading right away, automatically
help us inform Apple that they're messed up.
This has been an issue.
Luckily, apparently we're not the only podcast with
this issue.
But please feel free to let the engineering
team know themselves.
Hey, Apple, you've got a problem.
We've done it.
Maybe they'll be responsive to a little more
responsive to you.
Yeah, sure.
So with that work.
Yeah.
So what's engineering team at Apple dot com.
Right.
So what's interesting is that he also says,
hey, they haven't uploaded it yet.
And you can't expect people to understand how
it works.
You know, they just they just don't know.
And I and I know there's a lot
of people listening to Noah Jenner.
I said, stop being so arrogant.
Just use pod ping, just use it.
Hundreds of thousands of podcasts use this jump
on the pod ping train, baby.
Get on the tracks with us.
It is so and it'll cost you nothing.
It'll save you money.
You don't have to you don't have to
do anything.
Try it out for a little bit.
You know, just what is the what is
the the script called or whatever we have
the the ping catcher?
What's it called?
Oh, Hive Watcher, Hive Watcher, whatever it is,
you know, just go to pod ping dot
cloud.
You can get it from anywhere.
Just just do it.
You're wasting resources.
Your customers are getting angry at you.
And I guarantee you, you will love it.
And you'll and you'll and you can then
go out and market and say we update
quicker than Spotify.
And that's the raspberry on the end.
Right.
So when he is, you know, when when
he posted that, I went and looked up
his podcast, the Chuck Todd cast.
Oh, goodness.
And it's it's pushed out through Simplecast.
That's his hosting company.
Oh, Simplecast.
Do they use pod ping?
I do not know.
They do declare the podcast namespace, which almost
everyone does now.
I mean, I don't know if anybody has
looked recently, but the podcast namespace is ubiquitous.
I mean, it's love that it's almost every
single major hosting company.
Oh, I didn't even realize that's awesome.
That is.
I mean, there's it's so broad, broadly defined
now, which is fantastic because that sets the
stage for, you know, in so many things
that we can do that getting over that
hump is so difficult.
And I will be forever grateful.
For, you know, for the for the early
believers in this Sprout RSS dot com and
blueberry.
Yes.
That jumped on board and declared the name
the namespace in their feeds.
Red Circle, you know, cast transistor.
Captivate.
I mean, just all the early all the
very early ones that had large catalogs of
podcasts that jumped on this.
I just I'll never be able to say
thank you enough for them.
But.
So Simplecast declares the namespace.
But I can't tell whether they use pod
ping or not, I just haven't looked.
I would need to, like, strain that out
a little bit and be able to check
if any of those are coming through.
And I just haven't yet.
But but the thing about it is.
If Apple were to start watching pod ping.
And and then publicly said.
That they were if they announced that they
were going to do it.
Instantly.
You would have like.
20 other hosts jump on board and start
doing this, of course, because it would have
a motivating effect.
Yes.
And so they would get the benefit of
like if you look at it, if they
look at it and say, well, there's, you
know, this many feeds out of our catalog
are are sending pod pings when they update.
And it's, you know, I don't know, 25
percent or whatever.
Well, you can just at least double that
instantly.
Instantly.
I agree.
Half your catalog is is is pod pinging
immediately.
Because it's so easy.
It's only one get request.
That's it.
One get request per what?
Per feed update.
Oh, right, right, right, right.
But I mean, they don't have to do
a get request.
They just have to get on the hose.
Right.
Just open their mouth and let it stream
in.
Oh, isn't that how it works?
Get on the hose.
Apple.
Apple, get on the hose.
If if.
Yeah.
And Captain Sweatpants is right.
If Apple supported it, Lipson would even support
it.
That is.
Oh, yes.
That's right.
Yeah.
And then you know what?
Overcast would still not be a part of
it.
No.
You know, he'll never do that, but that's
OK.
But of course you can do whatever you
want.
Yeah, because we saw that with transcripts as
soon as Apple said we support transcripts.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Tons of support just popped up.
I'm seeing I'm seeing a lot of buzzsprout.
On piping.
Spreaker.
Spreaker does a lot.
Yeah.
Spreaker has a lot of stuff.
It would you would have to filter out
to see the simple if Simplecast is sending
because.
It's too small.
Yeah.
It's just going to get buried in the
noise.
Their catalog's not big enough.
Yeah.
We need to we need to talk about
Castamatic.
OK, let's talk about Castamatic.
Because speaking of podping, because Franco.
Somehow has put together a way to support
live in a podcast app that does not
have a back end.
It's magical.
So he must be using podping technology.
He owed for sure.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And so I guess the only thing I
can think of is he's he's spun up
a push notification server because this is iOS
only.
And I'm going to try.
So we need to get him on the
show to talk about it.
But he has a conflict every time we
record the board meeting because of his day
job and everything.
Yeah.
So we may have to do a boardroom
after dark.
Is he saving lives?
Stop that, doctor.
Yeah.
I mean, that that that guy's been sick
for a long time.
He'll still be there.
Yeah, that guy will be sick tomorrow.
Don't worry about it.
Yeah.
But I'll I'll coordinate with him to see
what time we can get him on.
But I'm assuming that he would that he
spun up a push notification server that's watching
the podping, you know, Hive Watcher come through
because it worked like a charm yesterday on
no agenda.
Oh, cool.
Yeah.
Boom.
There it is.
Oh, I need to check.
Actually, I need to check and see if
it came through on my phone today when
we went live.
Oh, I don't have my phone with me.
Dang it.
Did anybody did anybody see anybody in the
boardroom see if if it came through on
Castamatic today?
Because.
I mean, that's.
That's pretty that's a big deal for him
because he just does not have he's not
like like true fans, pocket cast.
Fountain, I mean, they all have a pretty
extensive back end infrastructure that they can depend
on to just roll out things like that,
but he doesn't.
And.
You know, that's that's a big and it's
more than just it's more than just podping
is podping and live.
So it took a lot of engineering.
So I want to I want to I
want to get him on and we'll see
what exactly what he did for sure.
So that's a template for others, you know,
since our and now he's still having issues
with the LN URL because there's no wallet
available in Italy that does it, if I
understand.
Correct.
Yes.
Yeah.
That kind of sucks.
Yeah.
Well, did you see that block is rolling
out lightning payments to all their square terminals?
Why does it not?
Why does it not surprise me?
All their square point of sale terminals.
I think I said this would happen.
Yeah.
It's like it's inevitable.
Everybody wants this.
They all want the cheap way to send
it.
Everyone's you know, Bitcoin is interesting now.
Everyone's everyone's on board with it.
You know, it's it's it's inevitable.
It's going to happen.
It's beautiful.
I mean, this WhatsApp group of all things,
I needed that in my life.
I already feel sorry for you and the
WhatsApp group.
I don't know how I got invited, you
know, because what's I really have WhatsApp just
for my European friends and my daughter and
my family, because no one there uses SMS
text messaging.
It's all WhatsApp.
And it's the podcast discourse hub.
And dude, it's like it should be renamed
to podcast, industrial complex.
Backroom headquarters, backroom, backroom, backroom, back channel.
And it seems like just looking at the
you know, and I pipe in from time
to time saying you guys suck.
You know, I just jump in there, you
know, you know, good.
You don't appreciate me.
You know, stuff like that.
Yeah.
There's Adam again to set the watch.
They're like, you know, podcasting 2.0 is
no marketing.
It's no good.
It's just a bunch of people running around
with ideas and running with scissors.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And I have to remind people, hey, we
set up the index.
Everything else came to us.
We didn't set Dave that at any point
we set out to, hey, man, let's market
new podcasting.
Did we ever do that?
No, no.
We just decided that, hey, people are interested
and we just picked up the ball.
So when we kind of get accused of
not doing it right, I'm like, huh?
What did we not do right this time?
Anyway, and so maybe I misinterpreted, but I
just need to go in there once in
a while, say you guys are no good.
But they're all talking about HLS.
This is this is really sparked.
Everyone is all about HLS.
They're all trying to figure out, can we
do video?
And I just want to say once again,
why don't waste your time?
It's really it's I just I think it's
a waste of time.
I really do.
I, you know, I know so many people
who have started.
Video podcasts on RSS and it just doesn't
work.
I mean, it works.
Technically it works, but people are not going
there.
They want that's their audio experience.
I'm just going to say it.
You know, yeah, a podcast is anything as
an enclosure.
And I completely agree with that.
But from a market perspective, do a podcast.
And if you want to have video, just
throw it on YouTube.
You get what you get.
You know, it's like it's it's a waste
of time.
Joe Rogan, he started with audio.
He still does audio.
Audio is still the main driver.
He only gets like a million views a
show now on YouTube.
It's not that much.
I'm sure there's another million over there on
Spotify.
And, you know, this no one all the
people I've analyzed and looked at, they rarely
even watch the whole show.
They're looking at the shorts, they're looking at
the clips, they're looking at the edits, you
know, people pull out the best parts.
That's the YouTube thing.
Just give into it.
That's YouTube.
Just let it go already.
And if I hear Rob Greenlee one more
time say, well, the market is driving us
this way and your podcasting is video.
No, it's not.
It's just not.
People still love their audio experience.
Nothing has really changed in that regard.
Other than very insidious, deceptive marketing by Google.
That's really all it is.
They've just started to call everything a podcast
and they label their videos.
Well, you were a podcast and put this
in the podcast channel.
It's a farce.
I can understand.
I understand the desire.
You know, because the desire here is we
don't want to be eaten by YouTube and
Spotify now doing video.
We don't we don't we don't want those
guys to eat us.
We want to be able to at least
stay on par with what they are able
to do.
And we know we can deliver video.
And we know now that.
You know, now that we now that the
industry as as broadly speaking.
Meaning the hosting companies and the apps have
had some real success with podcasting, you know,
2.0 features, transcripts, you know, pod rolls,
you know, the these sort of new ideas
make you think, OK, well, we can.
We can actually move the industry ourself.
We don't just have to wait for Apple
anymore.
And so when you have the combination of
that, you say, OK, I don't want to
have my lunch eaten by this video by
these video platforms.
I know we can deliver video and I
see that we have the protocols in place
to be able to do it.
We just all need to agree to do
it.
I see that this all makes sense to.
You know, this all makes sense.
The the question, I think that is just
not answerable.
I think Todd thinks he knows the answer
to it.
Todd's saying that it's just going to cost
too much money.
Yes.
Well, there's that.
And I think the buzzsprout guys think the
same, don't they?
Have you talked to them about it?
I have not.
No, I don't.
I haven't heard anything from them.
So but the so that, you know, the
issue the issue that nobody's I don't think
we're going to be able to answer because
nobody is actually honest with the numbers.
Yes, it's it's very possible that that like
we said before, that YouTube either does not
make money, either does not make a profit
or if they do is very small.
And that means that they're really all this
bandwidth and all this infrastructure that they've invested
in.
Is not.
Like if you tried to even do a
fraction of that, it would just kill you
in costs, crush you, it would crush you.
So the one thing that I noticed this
week about Spotify, that story about Spotify laying
off, you know, they laid off like another.
Oh, I didn't I didn't hear about I
didn't hear about that.
They laid off more people in their podcast
division.
Yeah.
They're just they continue to shed everybody out
of their podcast division and the ringer.
So those two things got cuts.
But sort of attached to that story was
this other story about.
Two thirds of their user base are free
users.
Yeah.
And so that means their ad support, the
only way those free users are paying Spotify,
anything is through ads.
Right.
It's the only way they can make money
off of a free user is with advertising.
So two thirds of their users.
Are free users as supported, but that two
thirds only makes up 10 percent of their
revenue.
Wow.
And I've been saying this for it feels
like three years now.
I think it's very obvious that at scale.
Advertising cannot pay the bills of a platform.
No.
You have to have paying subscribers.
You have to have people that you can
bill every month.
And so if if 66 percent of their
users are free ad supported and that only
accounts for 10 percent of their revenue.
Yeah.
That means the other 90 percent is coming
from their paid subscribers.
So you you have to think that YouTube
is doing similar math.
I heard I heard on Accidental Tech podcast
this past week that I heard one of
the hosts there just, you know, bitching endlessly
about the amount of of advertise advertisements in
YouTube videos now.
And he's and he's right.
I mean, you're getting in that you're getting
if it's a 20 minute video, you may
get four mid-roll ads.
Well, I mean, so just to reiterate what
we talked about last week, YouTube also has
boxes at the edge everywhere.
You know, they have storage all over the
place.
You know, you can't just serve this from
from from Cloudflare anymore.
You know, they they they are inside your
network.
They have I mean, they learned from Netflix
and Netflix learned from them.
So there's a lot excuse me, a lot
of that going on.
But still, if I so YouTube TV, which
I have, which I enjoy very much, I
love the quad view.
Excuse me.
So I have the news quad news quad,
which is Fox, CNN, MSNBC and BBC.
They turn it off after X number of
hours.
They're like still watching.
Boom.
Stops.
Yeah.
And the other day they hit it.
They hit it from me.
It wasn't there.
And I had to go online.
It's like, you know, well, sometimes you just
take it away.
So you can't find it because it's too
expensive for them.
Yeah.
You know, it's not lost on me.
But if they're piling ads into into every
video, they're doing it.
They're yes, they're trying to extract as much
ad revenue as they can from all these
free users, which which does not pay the
bills.
But it's a double.
They're also doing it to irritate you enough
to make to make you buy a subscription.
Yeah, exactly.
So I just think that that is an
app.
I'm again, just like last week.
I'm not saying don't do it.
If people want to try it and they
think the math will work, give it a
shot.
I'm not going to be the guy that
just poops on an idea.
But but I do think that it's that
it is.
Instructive.
To see what the big platforms are doing
and glean from that, that it's maybe not
even mathematically possible for them to do, because
all if you're a hosting company, you know,
you have you have subscribe, you know, your
subscribers are the podcasters, but then everybody and
but that's only a fraction of your essential
what you might call, quote unquote, customer base.
You've got tons of free customers, which are
the people downloading your your bandwidth.
And those, you know, that's going to be.
And it's just an unknown quantity.
I just I don't know.
Well, for me, it's just going to be
hard.
It's just such a trap.
It's like they've set this trap and everybody's
talking about it incessantly.
There's not a it's every conversation is it's
like Bitcoin conference, you know, stable coins, stable
coins, stable coin podcasting is video, video, video,
video.
The conference is what's up with video?
No.
I wish we could just go back and
say podcasting is audio only.
You're done.
And in fact, I could say that, but
it doesn't matter if you can't get it
in your podcast where you get your podcast,
you can't get it.
It's no good.
But you're the podfather.
Declare it.
I'm going to have to make a declaration.
So I saw it with with Pastor Jimmy
and this.
And so he now he answers to a
higher authority.
And so he gets his he doesn't need
to hear it from me.
But so he got way into YouTube video.
He was he's he's done now one hundred
and one episodes of his podcast, living up
in a down world.
And I set him up.
I taught him how to do it.
I set up his rig, everything.
He's great at it.
He's he's great voice.
He and his wife.
I love listening to them.
It's a great show.
And so they really got into carnivore and
they were watching carnivore YouTubers.
And carnivore diet, carnivore diet.
Yeah.
And, you know, and then there's there's pastors.
So they're finding all these and they're finding
lots of pastors and stuff on YouTube.
And so they decide got to do video
to get to get the word, the gospel
out, got to do video.
And I say, you know.
There's a lot that comes along with that.
And it doesn't matter.
So then the church has cameras, everything.
So they set it up and they're going
and the results are.
Bad, the video looks great, the studio is
great, but the views is not is not
there.
I say, well, you've got to play the
YouTube game.
You've got to have a dedicated person who
is cutting up bits, doing shorts.
Your your tiles, your your preview tiles have
to have the face.
Amazing.
Look what's happening.
Check it out.
And and he couldn't bring himself to do
it.
And so this experiment lasted for about six
months.
And I think just last week he said,
you know, I hate it.
I hate I hate the YouTube algo game.
I can't bring myself to do it.
And so he says, I'm stopping.
I'm just not doing it anymore.
I don't care.
And I said, good for you.
And he has a pain in the butt.
It's it's a record, you know.
Well, and he has the infrastructure.
He has a you know, he has the
church media director was doing it all for
him.
But, you know, you know, but but a
while ago I didn't have pants on.
And now, like, you can't do that when
you're not on video.
Well, there are big benefits to having no
video, that's for sure.
Yes.
You know, and so I saw the loop
and he's an adult, you know, he's an
adult man.
He's like, no, I'm not going to do
this.
This is this is crazy.
I know what it leads to.
It leads to you have to do more.
You got to do more.
You got to feed the system.
You got to feed the algorithm.
And it is the podcast industrial complex at
all.
Who are pushing this because the only thing
they need is advertising money and the advertisers,
of course, stupidly are all like, well, I
got good good data over here and there
is everyone says you're podcasting his video or
Joe Rogan and Megyn Kelly.
And they are running after the money.
And I just think it's a mistake.
I can't I don't know any other way
to say it.
Don't worry about it.
Just do your podcast.
It's going to be fine.
You know, through through all and we've been
through this loop.
It was 2008 YouTube came along.
I got to be you got to be
video video.
Then Juiced came along, Juiced.
Remember Juiced?
I've I've heard of Juiced.
I don't remember them.
The guys who created Skype created Juiced, J
-O-O-S-T, which I would say
sounds Dutch.
It is Yoast, Yoast.
Exactly.
And all the V.C. were like, oh,
you got it.
We need a Juiced.
Juiced is the future.
You know, same people who said the Segway
is the future of cities.
We'll all travel differently.
Clubhouse.
No.
So I've seen the loop.
And by the way, I fell for it
myself.
We changed from pod show to Mevio and
did video.
It was a horrible experience.
You just you create as much content as
you can, stick it with ads everywhere.
It's it's just it doesn't it's not the
whole concept.
And it doesn't have to be that.
You know, not everyone deserves to make money
in podcasting.
Well, what's what's cool is it seems like.
It seems like podcasting is developing its own.
Quote, unquote, algorithm.
Now with with Podroll.
Yes.
Yeah, I agree.
You know, yeah.
Pocketcast rolled out support for Podroll.
Yeah.
And it's it's a really like it's it's
very cool.
And so, you know, as soon as and
this is just like we talked about with
Apple.
If you support something and you announce it.
Then it generates usage.
Yes.
Surprise.
Amazing how that works.
It generates usage.
Yes.
So now now when you know, now you
have podcasters who are, oh, I can put
I can put suggested podcasts into my feed
and it will show up in the apps
as recommendations.
Now, as this snowball begins to roll downhill,
podcasting, open podcasting will be able will begin
to develop its own algorithm based on real
recommendations by real human beings.
And that's a that's a big deal.
Having a decentralized sort of algorithm.
By the way, I was listening to Buzzcast
in a butt cast.
How many times have I said, but this
is the first time I've heard it and
and responded to it.
But I said it like two weeks ago.
I said, but yeah, yeah.
Hold on a second.
They're going to take their money back.
I need to register that domain name.
Let me see if it's like, yeah, yeah.
I'm waiting for the PayPal.
Buzzsprout canceled their donation.
But we need we got chastised.
We got chastised.
Hold on.
Hold on a second.
Yeah.
But cast.
You know, it's already gone.
Somebody's got podcast.
Well, you never know.
Let me check now.
Boo.
Yeah.
You know, it's it's Kevin and Tom.
They have they have it already.
So we got chastised.
Yeah, we got chastised for not having buzzcast
in the pod, in our pod role.
Oh, well, let me change that right away.
OK, let me see.
Show info.
Hold on a second.
I'll take care of it right now.
People buzzcast.
Let me see if but no, no, but
cast.
Let me see.
Let me see if one cast is in
the in the database.
But I bet you there is a butt
cast and probably on anchor.
But hold on a second.
But cast.
Oh, I know there's a butt.
Oh, yeah.
There's one.
We have a cast.
No, there's no.
We have the fishing report with Jeremy.
But the butt metal blast cast.
But metal blast cast.
Is that a genre?
I don't know.
And the butt fumble fantasy cast.
OK, how about.
No, I just put a do a search
on podcast index for butt cast.
Well, I'm doing it in sovereign feeds, which
pulls the.
I'm getting the butt cast.
There you go.
The butt cast, the butt cast with Caitlin
and Joe.
And there's two butt casts.
Oh, nice.
OK, we're not putting that in.
We're putting in buzz.
Buzzcast buzz.
Of course, SoundCloud.
OK, of course, it's either anchor or SoundCloud.
Oh, there's an anchor.
OK, one from anchor, one from SoundCloud.
All right.
We got our bases covered.
OK, the buzz cast has been added.
You're done.
OK.
All right, good.
So.
This led me sort of down a different
trail that connected up with some other line
of thought that I've had since Sam posted
some stuff after last week's board meeting.
And.
You mean Sam saying I already invented all
that you suck for not telling everyone I
did it already?
Well, the thing that he's right about and
I have.
I've thought about it before is we just
need there's a few things here.
We need to be better about it.
We do need to be better about attribution.
You know, we in some sense, like I
don't even I don't even remember which tags
that I have proposed that have gotten into
the namespace.
I literally don't remember which ones they are.
It's I have a tendency to just kind
of like, OK, that's done and let's move
on to the next thing.
I'm with you on that.
And I'm not saying that that's the right
way to be.
I'm just saying that that's my tendency.
And and I also I've heard from multiple
people that.
That sort of attribution of.
Attribution is just more important than I'm giving
it enough.
I'm not giving it enough mental weight.
Attribution to someone who created something, you mean?
Yeah, like a tag or or some technology
or something like that, I think.
I think we needed to be better about
attributing the sources of where these ideas came
from to the people they came from.
So like like Alex, you know, I mean,
Alex is is responsible for alternate enclosure, which
is going to enable HLS if that takes
off.
I mean, he wrote the whole spec.
Well, I mean, his his name is not
on it on the podcast namespace.
Same thing with the location tag.
James James Cridland wrote the location tag spec.
His you won't know that he wrote that
unless you go back and find it in
the dark corners of GitHub discussions.
And so I feel like there needs to
be some sort of formal attribution.
In the namespace documentation.
That that gives credit to the person or
persons as applicable that that.
Sort of invented or came up with or
shepherded these things to their final form.
Kevin Finn over at Buzzsprout, he's the one
that came up with pod roll.
Well, the only thing I just have to
interject is that over time, nobody cares because
I have not invented podcasting.
You can look anywhere you want, and unless
you go to Dave Weiner's blog and search
back to 2002 to 2001, actually, you will
not know the genesis of podcasting.
Well, we it was Adam Carolla, Adam Carolla.
Everyone's the pod father now, which I'm all
fine with that.
And by the way, for me, all glory
to God, man, I was just a vehicle.
So I'm OK with it.
But I'm just saying attribution over time.
To me, Dave Weiner created blogging.
Believe me, you can't find that fact anywhere.
I just I think that it's I think
that it's more important than I realized that
it was.
OK.
And I mean, I agree with what you're
saying.
Over time, people forget.
But partially because partially people forget stuff because
it's not written down anywhere.
You know, it's only on some ancient, you
know, scripting dot com URL that barely exists
anymore.
And you have to go hunting for the
story that covered it or something like that.
But but when the podcast namespace is literally
linked off of Apple's namespace documentation or Apple's
podcaster documentation, that's a pretty direct link.
And I don't think that would get lost.
And I think it would really, you know,
I think it would help because we also
this is a bigger discussion because we need.
So I was reading through Spurlock's SPC.
Oh, yeah.
Document and realizing that we don't have a
place for some of this stuff.
And what I mean is like L4O2.
Yeah.
OK, good point.
The documentation for L4O2.
Sam invented that with Russell.
Come on.
Everybody knows Sam and Russell.
Yes.
Sam and Russell worked together to put that
in place.
And there is there are documents, but I
think they're like in my email.
I think they're even where they belong.
I don't think they're publicly in a GitHub.
And I would love to host those.
In the in the podcast namespace repo.
And and then, you know, but then be
able to if we don't host the core
documentation itself, we could at least link over
to it.
What I'm trying to say is when there's
two things going on here, I think we
need to be better about attribution.
And that'll be a project that I'm that
I'm fine with.
Yes, Daniel, you're right.
Podcasting2.org.
That is you're right.
That that can be the home.
And for for these things and they can
link out to the appropriate repos as necessary,
you're right.
And so.
I will take on the project of trying
to go back and put the attribution in
place for these things and all the nasty
emails that that incurs because I've forgot somebody.
But but I'm cool with that.
We'll just fix them as a as the
mistakes are seen.
And then maybe Dan, maybe Daniel.
If you have documentation for a thing like
Russell and Sam do for L4O2.
If y'all would be willing to link
that up with Daniel on podcasting2.org.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
And, you know, the SPC documentation can go
there.
The ULID documentation can flow there.
There's a lot of these sort of like.
There's a lot of these things that are
not namespace that need a place to live
because they're too spread out.
And I know.
Put it in the LLM.
That's what we need.
We need an LLM for attribution.
There there needs to be a podcast podcasting2
.0 LLM.
Where you can just ask it anything about
podcasting2.0. CSB jump on that.
So.
If if we like, I know with the
new version of L4O2.
I've seen the emails go back and forth,
Russell and.
Russell and Sam and Oscar.
And I think WDOS, they're all sort of
working together to to update what they're doing
to make sure that what they call secure
RSS, which is built on L4O2, to make
sure that that all works together so that
Fountain and TrueFans and Pod2 and they all
are going to play nice together.
Well, once that process is settled and we
have some documentation, hey, man, let's stick it
up on podcasting2.org.
And be sure and link it back to
the attribution.
Give it the attribution that that is, you
know, is needed.
But I mean, I'll.
I want to.
Be better about that.
Because people, you know, people's we had, I
kind of just thought it was covered through,
you know, we have the team repo that
lists everybody who's a contributor to podcasting2.0.
But it just doesn't.
I don't know, it just doesn't go far
enough.
It doesn't link to the correct stuff.
It just doesn't.
It's not adequate.
And.
I mean, it's important for people to know
where these ideas came from.
And I accept Sam's chastisement with humility and
grace.
Okay.
Well, that's cool.
I was going to say something else now,
but I don't know how we got off
on that tangent.
I know what I was going to say.
Okay.
Back to what we're talking about, about the
namespace.
The namespace is ubiquitous and how we're building
our own kind of distributed algorithm with PodRoll.
Ah, yes.
If the same amount of energy went into
trying to figure out how to make video
work on podcasting, if every hosting company put
the same amount, not and everyone has different
levels.
If everyone put the same amount of effort,
energy, time and resources, and that also means
cash, into supporting more 2.0 features.
I think that would be more beneficial than
trying to catch up to YouTube, which is
just impossible to do.
And let's just stick to what we do
well and do it even better and force
people, force the legacy apps into it if
they don't want to.
People will leave.
Every single show I say, you got to
have a modern podcast app.
Go to podcastapps.com.
The minute we go live, you'll be alerted.
You click on it.
Your app tells you we're live.
You can't listen live.
Within 90 seconds of me posting the show,
you'll get the show.
Every single show I say this.
And why do I say it?
Because I don't want to hear the bitching
and moaning for people.
I don't.
I didn't upload to Apple.
So these types of things, transcripts.
Okay.
So Apple finally did transcripts, you know, but
chapters and, you know, and Apple does chapters,
they do it in their ID3 tags, whatever.
We have a specific chapters functionality, which is
cool.
And you can do cool stuff with it.
And most of the hosting companies now automatically
generate chapters for you.
And some put images in for you.
There's a lot of stuff that's going on.
Let's focus on that.
Let's focus on what we know works, what
we know, what we develop, what is good.
And we're wasting, we're spinning our wheels like
hamster in the YouTube wheel.
Trying to figure out, can we do video?
Because that'll save podcasting.
Podcasting is under no threat whatsoever.
At all.
The podcast industrial complex is under threat.
I don't care.
That's different.
We've come up with so many different ideas
for them.
They're not interested.
They just want to do video and that's
not going to solve it.
It's going to be a sad day when
everyone implements video and everyone's pushing video and
no one's watching because they're going to YouTube
for that.
That's just it.
YouTube has a TV app, has a Roku
app.
People are watching it there.
You can't compete with something and probably financially
it's not worth it.
Man, I'm so reluctant.
I mean, yeah, look, I understand what you're
saying and you're not wrong.
Like, I just, I don't, if, if they,
if they can make it work for, for
a few shows, you know, I mean, it
would be cool.
I mean, it would be really neat.
Neat.
That's what I want to be.
I'm the inventor of neat.
I invented something neato.
That's right.
I don't want to say like, I don't,
I just, I don't want to say, I
just don't want to be the Debbie Downer
on it, but, but I'm just so skeptical
that it's going to like, work out.
No, and I think you're right.
There's a lot of, there could be a
lot of wasted effort here.
I see the, I see the cycles.
I see the cycles come by every day
on the, on this group and everybody's in
there.
You'd be glad you're not, but it's, it's
a huge group.
And, and you know, I'm this, let me
see, when was the first post?
August 17th, 2024.
And they're still talking about video.
Yeah.
You know, that that's just what it is.
You know, it's like, no, it's going to
take, it's going to take app support too.
Well, of course.
And there's app support, but I'm just saying.
Not for HLS.
Okay.
Good point.
But, but the bottom line is just don't
fight it.
Don't fight it.
You know, the people, people will come back
from, from their, from their YouTube misery.
They'll come back and like, I just want
to do a wherever you get your podcast.
You know, all the, all the, all the
successful people, Tucker and Megan and Joe and
Theo and Tony and all these people.
Yeah.
They have stuff on YouTube.
They have guests, you know, and yeah, that's
sometimes interesting to watch, but no one's, you
know, it's just like, come on.
They all do audio as a, as a
companion and audio is where I think people
still gravitate towards because you can do other
things and you're not going to be Theo
Vaughn.
You're not going to be Joe Rogan.
It's going to be a podcaster.
Be happy.
I think I would encourage the, I think
I would encourage the process to go like
this.
Here we go.
Podsage comes in and sets everything straight.
We'll make us all feel better.
No, this is why there's two of us,
Dave.
I appreciate you doing this.
I would try, I would try to put
it, get some idea ahead of time of
which apps support HLS natively already.
Cause I, I think, I think the NA
the app support is going to be the
harder lift than the hosting company support.
The hosting company support is going to involve
accepting the video upload, transcoding it into multiple
formats, chunking it out into object storage behind
a CDN.
That's, that's stuff that they, that hosting companies
are already pretty good at, you know, that
that's not rocket science.
So I think that they would have an
easier time doing that than the podcast apps
would have implementing it into their apps.
Because if the app doesn't already support video,
it's going to be, there's going to be
a lot of UI that has to happen.
So it would be nice to know ahead
of time, which apps already have, we know
which ones support video, but which ones might,
there might be some already that support HLS
just by virtue of the libraries they're using.
So you may get some of it for
free.
So it would be nice to have some
sample feeds out there where you stick HLS
as an, into the normal enclosure tag and
just do some samples, run through every podcast
app you can find and see if any
of them play it.
And then you just take notes about which
ones do and which ones don't.
Then you can go back and say, okay,
these, these apps support video, this, these subset,
the subset of those apps support, support HLS.
And then you can say, okay, you could
reach out to those apps and say, can
you also support the HLS in the alternate
enclosure tag so that we can have a
unified feed?
Because that's the, that's the dual strategy here.
The dual strategy that Justin from Transistor is
talking about is not just HLS video support.
It's, it's HLS as an alternate enclosure to
an existing audio podcast so that the app
can intelligently switch back and forth depending on
whether you're watching or listening.
That's what they want.
And so I wouldn't like, oh, Nathan just
linked up a podcast in the boardroom of
a sample feed with HLS in the main
enclosure.
So that would be something like that would
be a good thing to do.
Say Pocket Cast, Podcast Guru and more already
handle HLS.
Yeah.
Do a survey of some sample feeds, find
out which pod, which podcast apps already support
it.
And then, you know, where you're starting from.
And we know that Pocket Cast and Podcast
Guru, they're down with the dark side.
They know they're, they're good to go on
2.0 features.
They're, they've proven that they're going to push
forward.
So those guys would be easy to work
with.
I mean, you know, Jason and Alex over
there are great over at Podcast Guru and
the folks over at Pocket Cast are great.
So you could definitely, you know, work with
them to get them to support the alternate
enclosure version of HLS and then just like
run some samples.
Get your process down first.
Then you have a template to work with
to sort of like show the other apps
what to do.
That's the way I would go about it.
You know, there's so many devices and things
have been invented over time that just wind
up being used differently than you ever expected.
And, you know, I know people don't want
to hear it.
So I'm just giving another voice against what
you said is, of course, perfectly reasonable.
YouTube was initially developed for baby videos, for,
you know, broadcasting yourself, for showing your home
movies, for, you know, that's what it was.
It was like an expanded version of Justin
TV.
It's a very good example.
I don't even know if Twitch originally was
designed to be for gamers just to watch
people play games.
I have a feeling it wasn't.
You know, Percy Spencer, you know, was working
on radar technology at Raytheon and wound up
creating the microwave, you know, which we now
basically only use for popcorn.
You know, so there's all these things and
a podcast app, which is universally known, it's
still the most powerful term in broadcast media
wherever you get your podcasts.
And I think it's just as hard to
roll out video to all podcast apps as
it is going to be to roll out
to all hosting companies as it is going
to be, you know, just to consume it
that way.
And I just want to warn people that
we have so many other wins we can
get right away by making it more attractive.
I mean, the funding tag, can we just
get the funding tag front and center with
a big ass button, support this, like Sam
Sethi is absolutely right.
You click it on TrueFans, and I hope
TrueFans comes out with an app soon, and
you can hit it with your Apple Pay
or your Google Pay.
These are things that matter.
These are things that actually matter, and then
you circumvent the Patreon fees.
There's so many things that can be done.
I just feel it's a waste of energy.
Yeah, I heard James talking about how he
built a Stripe interface, but nobody uses it,
and they still just use Patreon.
I think...
No, it was worse.
It was worse.
He said, buy me a coffee, leave me
a tip.
Yeah, that would be worse to you.
I think that's a...
I mean, no agenda uses Stripe interface and,
you know, I mean, and checks and everything
else.
That's all about the message, I think.
I don't...
That's not really about the tech.
Absolutely.
If you say, buy me a coffee, guess
what you're going to get?
A coffee.
If you say, leave me a tip, guess
what you're going to get?
A tip.
You know, people don't want to do the
work.
They're afraid to ask.
Ask and thou shalt receive.
It's just a fact.
But if you tell them to go to,
you know, if you tell them to go
to podnews.net slash donate, and if you
tell them that over and over and over
again, eventually they're just going to...
That's where they're going to go.
I think it's about the ask, really.
And that facilitates the ask, you know, the
funding tag.
That's what I meant.
So we don't even use the...
Well, the funding tag finally is starting to
show up, and I promote it a little
bit.
We just tell people to go to our
donation page and support us.
Here's yesterday's rundown.
Commodore Archduke, $1,770.
Blake Luther, $1,000.
Preston Isaacson, $222.22. Matthew Martell, $210.60.
This is serious money.
Now, is that through PayPal?
Which ones?
Is it PayPal, Stripe?
Those are all...
The Commodore Archduke is Stripe.
The rest are PayPal.
So we probably have about 20% using
Stripe.
It's on the same page.
You can choose which one you use.
And you go to knowledgeanddonations.com.
We're not asking you to send a coffee.
That's the difference.
So how many times can I say it?
And you've got to close the loop.
Thank you, Commodore Archduke.
Let me read your note.
I really love you.
Appreciate it.
That's the system.
You know, people are like, well, you know,
you've been doing this since the beginning.
You're the podfather.
You're all about the raspberry today.
I am.
I am because I'm disturbed by the direction
that people go in.
I'm like, you're just going to bump into
a wall.
So someone's got to be the guy saying,
no, it's not going to work.
And you have the right to be disturbed
because you've not only invented podcasting, but you
also have been down this road with You've
got the history to back it up.
I did the network.
I did the video.
I did all of that.
And what blew it out of the water?
The content.
Serial.
That took it all right back.
And, you know, when everyone got all jitty
and jack during COVID, everyone was doing a
podcast.
All the podcast companies were humming.
We got new customers signing up every single
day.
And then Spotify blew a billion dollars, blew
a billion dollars, and it didn't work for
them.
And all they've done since then is fire
people.
Get a clue.
Yeah, that's it.
Yeah.
Get a clue.
You know, video superstars, you know, high end
productions.
No, that's not even what people want.
They want to hear authentic voices.
They don't want to hear all your ums
and ahs edited out.
They just want to hear someone talking about
something they care about.
They want to eavesdrop on a conversation.
That's it.
It's very simple.
Don't try to professionalize everything, which is what
video always, always demands.
Too much polish.
Yeah.
I love raw.
I love hearing.
I love hearing unprofessional voices.
It's great.
You know, I listen to all kinds of
crap audio.
I listen to podcasts with crap audio all
the time.
It's not the worst.
It doesn't hurt me.
Well, I listen, I watch a lot of
YouTube and I enjoy YouTube, but it's not
podcasting.
No.
Podcasting is different.
Yes.
Dave, let's thank some people.
I've kept you way too long.
I apologize.
That is my fault.
All right.
All good.
Sam Sethi is riding his bicycle.
He is.
We need to load the horn.
I don't, I don't have a horn.
What horn do you like?
The bicycle or the bell, the bicycle bell.
I mean, the ching ching.
Maybe I would, do I have a horn?
I've got, uh, I got the booty horn.
Got that one.
I've got, uh, let's see.
I've got these horns.
I've got those horns.
No, that's not a bike.
That's not a good horn.
Is it?
No, no, no, no, no.
Uh, anyway, Sam is cycling from Montreux to
Luzon through the vineyards, tasting wine and listening
to the pod father and the sage hashtag
heaven.
And he sent us a triple sevens for
that from, uh, true fans, of course.
And also a thousand sats.
If we get secure RSS, right, we can
replace Patreon and other paywalls, including Spotify SOA.
I'm interviewing Oscar on power about what it
is, how to implement it and how it
will work.
Good.
That's on his, um, what is that?
Um, is it the true fans, the creator
podcast, what is it called?
Um, true fans, creator.
Yeah.
He's, he's doing a, uh, he's doing, I
didn't even know.
Oh, it's a, it's a pretty good show.
Um, let me see.
True.
Oh, I get it.
Let me see.
It's a, um, creators from true fans.
Is that yes.
Creators from true fans.
There it is.
Uh, Sam and Claire wait Brown.
So they haven't done this in late April.
Okay.
Yeah.
Although they haven't done one since May 19th
while Sam's on vacation.
So, okay.
It's hard.
It's hard to do a weekly show.
Trust me.
Uh, 55 55 from Chad F coming in
from Castamatic.
And he said, this is a row of
swans.
First lit boardroom booster Graham from Castamatic.
All right.
Nice.
Very nice.
Uh, source D 1701.
I'm waiting for Adam's new gig as a
vibe coding Twitch influencer.
And I'm waiting to see the subsequent vibe
coded GitHub repo in the interim.
Dude, you would be frightened.
You would be frightened.
That's a good point though.
You need to vibe code a GitHub.
You need to vibe code this up into
GitHub.
I don't think so.
Polish as the polish, the ending, the ending
triumph.
I don't know, man.
It's, it's scary code.
Uh, I don't know if I'm ever going
to get it completed.
That's a, it, what I have works.
It's not how I want it to work.
And every single LLM that I said, change
only this, it goes right in and says,
Oh, I don't need to use your feed
parser.
You don't need that user agent.
You don't need any of that.
Now let me change your liquid soap script.
It can be much better.
I just won't listen to me.
Um, let me see.
We have a two to three.
That's a show number.
A boost.
Thank you very much from user one, eight,
three, four, two, zero, two, two, five, zero
three, eight, two, two, six on fountain.
Thank you for your vibing in the, in
the refactoring folks.
Yes, indeed.
And I think that's it.
We didn't get a lot of that.
I think we were so enthralling today that
everyone was just listening.
They didn't think about boosting.
Yeah.
Or that's also called boring.
I don't know that we were boring.
Maybe it's possible.
I got a lot off my chest.
I've been known to be boring before it's,
it's in my DNA.
I never get bored of hearing your talks
pod stage.
Uh, what are we, uh, what are we,
uh, you would have thought that after all
those, I would have been prepared.
You'd be ready.
Kevin, you're ready to rock.
Yeah.
Kevin Bay, $5.
Thank you, Kevin.
I got a better system here.
Uh, Cameron Rose, $25.
Thank you, Cameron.
Uh, Chad Pharaoh, Chad F thank you brother.
$20 and 22 cents.
Uh, Mark Graham.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Mark Graham.
Uh, $1.
Thank you, Mark.
Uh, new media.
That's Martin Lindisco.
$1 pod page.
That's Brendan over there.
$25 Oscar, Mary, $200.
Woo.
I think he needs a little big baller
for that.
Thank you, Oscar.
And congrats on the launch.
Uh, Joseph Morocco, $5.
And that's it.
We got some boost though.
We've got, let me scroll all the way
down here.
We got whoa, booster Graham, one, two, three,
four from a Chris, you know, through fountain.
He says in response to salty crayons, boost
a reminder that if a podcasting app or
to add NWC, you'd be able to connect
Nostra wallet connect.
You'd be able to connect to at least
15 different wallets, some custodial, some non-custodial,
plenty that adhere to keep it simple.
Stupid.
You don't need to interact with Nostra to
connect to a wallet via Nostra connect.
The solution exists.
Say again, the solution exists.
No, no.
The piece before that, just all of it.
No, I just want to hear what was
said about Nostra wallet connect.
I want to hear it.
I'm sorry.
Oh, I'd already archived.
Let's see.
Uh, let me go back.
You don't need to interact with Nostra to
connect to a wallet by a Nostra wallet.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
It's just poorly named.
Really?
It is poorly named.
Yeah.
Uh, one, two, three, four from CLAAS on
Linux through fountain.
He says, is what Dave is saying about
a straight MP4 file.
True.
Of course it's true.
I don't know what it was, but of
course it was true.
Absolutely.
Yes.
That it needs to always load everything before
it can play.
I put an MP4 file on object storage
and both the player in my web app
and the default video element started playing it
immediately.
And you would, and you would see HTTP
206 returned, uh, partial data or whatever it's
called.
And you can see a little buffer line
too, for what part it had loaded already.
That's it depends on the server and the
client.
Most historically, most of the podcast apps have
just downloaded first downloaded the whole thing.
Yeah.
If you have an, if you have a
very intelligent client and your object storage provider
supports range requests, then yes, I can see
it's possible to get pieces of the file
in a streaming fashion.
But, um, like historically speaking, most of the
client of the podcast apps, they do grab
the whole thing, but you know, maybe that's
changed.
Maybe that'll change over time.
Uh, comic strip blogger, wait, we're already at
the delimiter.
No, this is, this is a different CSB.
This is a 1515 from CSB to fountain.
He says, oops, my pod is called field
recording by CSB field, not fired.
Okay.
Oh, that was a, Oh, he followed up
on something.
I guess.
Did we say something wrong?
Did we say, did we say it wrong?
I'm sorry.
Um, let's see.
Oh, user.
Let's see.
June 1st is user nine, four, zero one,
eight, seven, three, four, eight, eight, eight, three,
two, eight.
Change that since 3,333 sets through fountain.
He says, and the podcaster said unto the
serpent, we may use any RSS host, but
streaming video to YouTube will make our audio
suck.
And we'll be distracted by scammers in the
live chat.
And the serpent sayeth unto the podcaster, surely
thy audio shall not suck right on Chris
last that's Chris over at Jupiter.
Okay.
Chris 5,000 sass through fountain.
He says, appreciation boosts.
Sometimes you just feel the need.
He's been knocking it out of the park,
man, with this week in Bitcoin.
I got to boost them again.
He's really knocking it out of the park.
He's got too many podcasts.
I got a prune.
That's, I mean, that's the podcast where I'm
always delighted when it comes out and, you
know, and every, the past, let's say he's
done two shows in the past two weeks,
but it was like three weeks, no show.
And it was, it was, it hurt me.
I was listening to like others.
I'm going to listen to this.
I don't want to listen to this.
I want to hear this week in Bitcoin,
man.
I kept up with Chris through Coder radio
and then he left that show.
So I don't, I've not been able to
keep up with him properly since.
Well, it's a great, it's a great podcast.
Yeah.
I'll need, I need to go and trim
down so that it pops up in my
feed quicker.
Bruce, the ugly quacking duck, 22, 22 real
ducks, the pod verse trying out pod verse.
I keep hearing stable coin in my dreams.
Help me, please.
LOL 73s.
73s kilo five alpha, Charlie, Charlie coming at
you.
Again, Bruce, the ugly quacking duck with another
22, 22 through podcast guru.
He says things always switch around when the
dust settles.
I hope podcasting will still remain fun and
an important part of us all.
I guarantee it.
Now everybody share a hug, share a secret
and hug.
Wait, don't we need to have, don't we
need to play that jingle?
What is it?
Everyone share a secret.
Everyone hug and share a secret.
This is it.
Oh, there's no winning.
We don't like to foster a competitive atmosphere,
but we laugh a lot.
Now everyone hug and share a secret.
That's right.
Call me strip blogger.
There he is.
The delimiter.
14 445 through fountain.
He says, howdy fellow Bitcoiners, Adam and Dave,
like yourself, me, myself, and many in your
audience are Bitcoiners.
So for the to Satoshi's sake, y'all
please subscribe to the podcast.
Bitcoin and dot, dot, dot.
Just go to Bitcoin, www.bitcoinandshow.com or
search for Bitcoin and dot, dot, dot in
any podcast app.
It's a cool podcast about Bitcoin.
Very interesting and chillaxing for us Bitcoiners.
Yo, CSB PS, follow me on X at
CSB.
Amazingly, just three letters.
C S B.
I reciprocate follows.
I think I've been on that podcast.
You've been on CS on the Bitcoin and
podcast.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah, I think so.
I have like a lot of podcasts, brother.
I can't keep them track.
I, well, I've been holding off.
I have 75 podcasts or interview requests.
Oh Lord.
Yeah.
And I'm holding off much.
Yeah.
And then the minute our app is out
out of beta, I'm going to start contacting
everybody.
Oh, I just found your email.
Yeah.
I'd love to come on the show.
Gee, I was cleaning up my email.
I was cleaning up my email and I
saw that you said, well, yeah, I'd love
to do this now to have something to
talk about.
That's a, that's a classic.
Oh, I see that I missed this email.
I saw it 12 times and ignored it
because I didn't have time.
I hit a for archive and now I'm
ready.
Yes, I'm ready for you now.
That's it.
That's our group.
Oh, thank you all so much.
We appreciate the support.
All this support goes directly into the podcast
index.org funds to ensure that we keep
this system rolling because that's, uh, that's really
the community right there is, uh, is supporting
the servers, supporting everything working.
And we just appreciate it because that, uh,
I mean, I, I love that we set
this up and I love that it is
community, uh, supported by, uh, by podcast hosts,
podcasters, podcast apps, and listeners like you go
get a tote bag.
There's no tote bag involved.
Go to podcast index.
Of course we love the boost.
You can boost us.
You can, uh, the, the sats all go
into our node, uh, which still is, I
think, uh, one of the lowest fee nodes.
There's no fee essentially.
I think we only, there's no beginning fee.
You know, just try to give people liquidity.
If you need any, let me know, hit
me up.
Um, and it's just sitting there, just trying
to route stuff around.
Uh, and I think, uh, it's, I got,
I haven't even looked at it for so
long.
I rarely hope it's still running.
No, I would get, you would get alerts
if it wasn't running.
And Graham is always so kind.
You know, he's like, Oh, you guys got
a big node.
We got an update.
Uh, I'll do it at 3 a.m.
for you guys.
You know, just love that guy.
He, and he, are we up today?
Did we, did he, did he upgrade us
recently?
Yeah.
Okay.
It's, uh, it's actually a two, 2 a
.m. Upgraded us, make sure to got all
back up and running, uh, sent me a,
a ping when I had to unlock the
node.
The guy never sleeps.
No, he does not sleep.
No, him and Russell from pod too.
Neither one of them sleep.
Who says it's not the same guy?
I don't know.
It's very possible.
I mean, I post something on pod on
podcast index dot social and Russell does a
favorite on it.
And I know it's like three o'clock
in the morning and he's just like, he's
up.
He's never sleep, bro.
Uh, so for your Fiat fund coupons, we
accept that.
Of course at PayPal, go to podcast index
.org down at the bottom, scroll down.
There's a red donate button.
That's how you can support us any amount.
We appreciate it all.
And, uh, thank you, uh, boardroom for being
here.
Oh, steam bear.
We'll be next on the live stream.
Uh, I forget to promo him all the
time.
Uh, we'll bring in his crazy music, uh,
and we'll be doing that all live and
lit with, uh, with real time, uh, uh,
remote items, uh, splits and everything.
And now available on customatic brother Dave.
Uh, are you going into the woods again
this weekend?
What are you doing?
No woods, no, no woods, no woods.
Uh, any home, uh, improvement projects finishing our
closet organizer in our newly spiffy closet.
Yeah.
Let me guess.
You mean Melissa's closet where you have one
small side?
Yes.
Yeah.
That's how it works.
I have one hanging rack and a cubby.
Thank you very much for doing what we
see you next week, right here for podcasting.
They're cool.
You have been listening to podcasting 2.0
visit podcast index.org for more information.
I don't have any pants on right now.