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Podcasting 2.0 for September 26th, 2025, episode

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236.

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No Nancy here.

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Hey everybody, the Rodecaster's working.

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Don't worry, you won't be subjected to all

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kinds of nonsense for hours on end.

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No, instead, it is a regularly scheduled board

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meeting of Podcasting 2.0 where we discuss

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everything going on in podcasting, the history, what's

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happening now, and where we are going in

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the future.

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I'm Adam Curry.

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Wait, I forgot to tell you, we're the

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only boardroom that rejects work slump in the

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office, there it is.

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I'm Adam Curry in the heart of the

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Texas Hill Country and Alabama, the man who's

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my first call in case of a security

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breach.

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Say hello to my friend on the other

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end, the one and the only, the only

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pod sage, Mr. Dave Jones.

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Are you cleaned up now, are you clean?

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Yes, I'm clean, man, I'm clean, I'm clean.

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That was kind of interesting.

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I have never had a breach in my

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life.

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You got popped.

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I sure did.

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That was, I mean, who in their right

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mind?

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No, but who in their right mind is

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thinking, hey, you know what, I'm going to

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run a crypto miner on a two gig

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Linode instance.

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I mean, what are they mining?

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They were probably just all kinds of stuff.

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I mean, everything you can think of.

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They run crypto miners on- Washing machines.

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Like home routers and crap.

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I mean, if it's got a CPU, they're

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going to mine on it.

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Collectively, when you're mining on 7,000 hacked

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machines, you actually get some horsepower.

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So I've always, honestly, I've just always been

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too lazy to figure out how to do

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all the key stuff.

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I'm like, oh, it's SSH.

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If it's SSH, then it should be secure.

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Then whatever I'm sending should be secure.

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How do they actually sniff out my access,

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my password, if I'm using SSH from my

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machine into the server?

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What are they doing that they can sniff

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that out?

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Well, so the way, it's all credential stuffing.

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So you're going to have, there's mass scanners

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out there polling for OpenPort 22 all the

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time.

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Oh, I see that, yeah.

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And then as soon as they, they'll get

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a list and then they just start throwing

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password dictionaries at it as fast as possible.

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Can they see usernames?

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Don't know about that.

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Because I don't have a traditional- But

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you had root permit, you had root-

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They didn't come in through root.

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They didn't come in through root.

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They came in through Atom?

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No, different names.

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None of them were Atom, which is why

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I thought it was kind of interesting.

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It's like, so how do you guess that?

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I mean, it's possible that they came in,

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I mean, you haven't really traced that breach

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through the logs, but I mean, it's possible

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that they came in a different way, but

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I would not, that would not be my

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first thought.

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Interesting.

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It's, it could be that- But I'm

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pretty sure root access was open.

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I'm pretty sure that was open.

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So if- So in that case, you've

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got root and then you just have to

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guess the password.

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Yeah, you can look at your, you can

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look at your authentication log and see where

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the initial hit was.

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It should still be in there.

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You know, you'll see in your, oh man,

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what is the name of that log?

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Is it, let's see.

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I think it may be in just your

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sys log coming in as cron.

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I mean, excuse me, as SSHD.

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Authentication.

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Maybe you need to like, so what happened

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was your, one of your boxes got-

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Two, two boxes.

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Okay, two of your vibe coding boxes got

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popped.

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Well, one that was actually in production and

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it's, you know, it's running an FFmpeg streaming

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radio thingamabob with a singular Python script.

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And I'm very wary of resources for a

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whole bunch of different reasons.

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I want to see if I can put

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it on a, on a one gig linode,

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you know, and keep it even cheaper, even

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smaller.

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And so I have HTOP running.

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I'm like, wow, why is it at a

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hundred percent?

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And I go looking and it says, okay,

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you've got this process called K audit zero

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running at 97%.

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So that was kind of, that was actually,

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it's actually kind of nice because you don't

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notice it right away.

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You know, it was like my stuff was

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still working because it uses very little CPU

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and very little overhead.

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And there, this K audit zero mining thing,

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it just uses CPU.

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It doesn't really use a lot of memory.

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And so that's how I saw it.

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And I'm like, oh crap.

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And, and, you know, I could see that

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it all happened yesterday because, well, first of

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all, I noticed it yesterday and I wasn't

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quite sure what it was.

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And, but I could see that, you know,

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they put in SSH keys and all this

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stuff all on the 25th.

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So, okay, all right.

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Backdoor.

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Yeah, cron tabs and all that stuff.

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So, I would imagine that, you know, if

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you have, if you have anything, if you

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have a relatively weak password, it's, it's gonna

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be.

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Yeah, that's the thing though.

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I have, you know, my passwords are generated

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by, what do you call it?

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Vault warden, bit warden.

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So, Your SSH login password?

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Yeah, yeah.

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It's possible.

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So, it's possible that it came in through,

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and that's why I would want to do

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is check, check the SSH log and see

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if that was the actual first hit because

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it could have been, they could have come

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in through some, through a flaw in some

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other part of the system.

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I mean, that's possible too.

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You have, you have, you know, how much

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stuff do you have open on that box

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is the question.

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Yeah.

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And exposed.

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You know, which ports do you have open

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with running software on it that may not

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be secure?

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Well, I can see, you know what?

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I can see right now, they definitely came

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in through root.

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Oh, well then that's, that's probably SSH then.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Cause I'm seeing they're trying now.

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Oh, really?

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Yeah.

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Let's see, they're trying port 39550, the port

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58232.

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That just gotta be a scan then, I

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guess.

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I just scan the ports.

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Well, now what are you, where are you

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seeing this at?

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In var log auth.log. Okay.

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And that's, and those are SSH attempts?

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I guess.

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It doesn't actually say, it says, yeah, SSH

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authentication, authentication failure, root, root, root, root, root,

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root.

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Yeah.

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And then user vios.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So you got, so you got hit by

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root then.

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Yeah.

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Did, had you, did you have a long

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password on root?

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Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's, I don't know.

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It would be interesting to go back and

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see where that first successful login was, you

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know, like when it happened.

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Let me see.

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So that would be, here's how, I'll just

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try it one, then we'll give up on

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it.

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Yeah.

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Cotton gin.

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He, yeah, he's, he's got it.

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He's got root and password logins disabled.

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Oh yeah.

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They are now.

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He's keys all the way down, baby.

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Let me see.

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Okay.

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And this would have to be on the

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20.

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Oh, interesting.

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Hmm.

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Binary file matches.

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Yeah.

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You can ignore that.

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What would I be grepping for here?

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Well, I mean, just the SSH authentication entries,

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you know, SS, var, log, auth, log with

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SSH.

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You can search it for SSH.

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Yeah.

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That's interesting.

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Nothing past the 27.

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That doesn't make any sense.

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Well, maybe, I don't know.

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So whatever.

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As long as you, yeah, as long as,

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so, I mean, my standard protocol for this

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kind of stuff.

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Which I now have.

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Thank you very much.

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Which you have.

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I have the Dave Jones standard protocol.

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I'm very happy with this.

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If anybody's running servers, you know, Linux servers,

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you really, I mean, to me, like bare

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minimum is you need to disable, disable root.

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If this is in your SSH configuration, you

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need to disable root login, disable password login,

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disable interactive keyboard login.

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Only put your SSH server on a different

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port than 22.

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Then make, and then enable only key pair

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authentication, public key authentication.

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And the, what I go, I go one

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step further.

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Some people don't want to go this far,

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but I go one step further and I

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restrict access to my SSH port using UFW

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to only particular IP addresses.

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So I don't, I just, I do not

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play around with that stuff.

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And it's sometimes, you know, and sometimes it

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can be a pain and people don't want

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to deal with it because you're on the

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road or something and you want to log

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into your machine and you, you know, you

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can't because you're restricted.

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It is a pain, but now with TailScale,

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I just restrict everything.

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I restrict all the logins to all the

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boxes, to my, to the CIDR block that

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is part of my residential IP scheme.

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And then I just come back.

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That way, if I get a new IP

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address at my house router, it's not gonna,

277
00:10:39,860 --> 00:10:42,920
you know, I still, I'm still okay cause

278
00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:43,940
I'm on the whole subnet.

279
00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:46,700
And then if I ever need to get

280
00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:48,760
onto it from the road, I just use

281
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,640
TailScale and come back through my house and

282
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,040
just get it that way.

283
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:56,180
The bottom line is, if you're gone, podcast

284
00:10:56,180 --> 00:10:57,220
index is history.

285
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,640
Hey, Melissa, Melissa.

286
00:11:01,820 --> 00:11:03,140
Okay, just sit in front of the console.

287
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:04,180
Tell me what you see.

288
00:11:04,420 --> 00:11:06,220
What windows are open?

289
00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:07,340
Oh, this 18 open.

290
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,380
Okay, let me see.

291
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,480
Type in S-S-H.

292
00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,480
Go to the dead body.

293
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,120
Is his phone in his pocket?

294
00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:18,400
Can you put his thumb on the authenticator

295
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:18,800
for me?

296
00:11:18,940 --> 00:11:19,060
Okay.

297
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,060
Hold it in front of his face.

298
00:11:20,060 --> 00:11:21,900
Open his eyes, open the eyelids.

299
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,720
Just open them up with your fingers.

300
00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:24,180
Yeah, okay.

301
00:11:24,260 --> 00:11:24,680
There you go.

302
00:11:24,740 --> 00:11:25,000
Perfect.

303
00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:26,200
Oh, the finger's too cold.

304
00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:27,180
Okay, switch to the face.

305
00:11:32,460 --> 00:11:33,240
That's hilarious.

306
00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:34,100
But not really.

307
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:34,940
No.

308
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:35,960
Not really.

309
00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:38,540
Oh man.

310
00:11:38,860 --> 00:11:41,420
And it was, cause you know, I got

311
00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:43,280
a lot going on these days.

312
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,720
So this morning I was like, oh, cause

313
00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,620
last night after, after I did no agenda,

314
00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:49,380
I'm pretty tired.

315
00:11:49,380 --> 00:11:58,160
I had modularized, modularized, modularized, modularized, my Python

316
00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,980
script, which was actually kind of cool.

317
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,220
Cause you know, and the only reason I

318
00:12:02,220 --> 00:12:05,460
did it is the, the vibe coding machines,

319
00:12:05,460 --> 00:12:07,600
they stopped being able to write the whole

320
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:07,860
script.

321
00:12:07,940 --> 00:12:09,280
It was like 1200 lines.

322
00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:13,060
And it went, it just kept not completing.

323
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,900
And I learned something else by the way.

324
00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:18,060
If you upload your, this is grok in

325
00:12:18,060 --> 00:12:18,460
this case.

326
00:12:18,460 --> 00:12:21,980
If you upload your scripts, it may truncate

327
00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:22,780
it on the upload.

328
00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:25,220
I said, well, I never had the full

329
00:12:25,220 --> 00:12:25,440
script.

330
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:25,840
What do you mean?

331
00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:26,980
I uploaded it to you.

332
00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:28,480
Well, no, I never had it.

333
00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:29,140
It got truncated.

334
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,560
Oh, that's good to know.

335
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,080
So it only accepts a certain amount of

336
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,020
input and then you're toast.

337
00:12:34,420 --> 00:12:36,500
Well, unless you paste it in, which is

338
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:36,760
okay.

339
00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:38,160
That's fine by me.

340
00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:39,800
So I'm like, well, why don't I just

341
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:40,900
modular, modular.

342
00:12:42,380 --> 00:12:43,980
Why don't I chop it into bits?

343
00:12:44,460 --> 00:12:45,800
I chopped it into bits.

344
00:12:45,940 --> 00:12:47,820
And so I was all excited.

345
00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:50,600
This morning, I got a couple hours like,

346
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:51,140
ah, it's great.

347
00:12:51,220 --> 00:12:52,100
I'm going to work on this.

348
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,500
I hadn't actually tried it out yet.

349
00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:54,480
I'm sure there were some bugs.

350
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,880
There were, and I'm like, whoa, everything's spiking.

351
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,340
All the machines are spiking.

352
00:12:59,780 --> 00:13:01,820
So I spent a lot of copy and

353
00:13:01,820 --> 00:13:03,960
pasting your instructions on how to do this.

354
00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:06,440
And then once I got it, like, okay,

355
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:07,580
now I know how it works.

356
00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:09,500
Then I just shored up everything.

357
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:11,580
Cause I got other machines that haven't been

358
00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:12,400
hacked yet.

359
00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,280
And so I started shoring up everything.

360
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:17,160
But I'm- There's still time.

361
00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,880
But I can tell you this box is

362
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,480
just, it's getting hit every second.

363
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:23,680
Oh, you're- Every second.

364
00:13:24,140 --> 00:13:25,500
You're a target now.

365
00:13:25,740 --> 00:13:28,160
Yeah, now it's trying FTP users.

366
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,020
It's like, it's nonstop.

367
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,060
Oh, really?

368
00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:31,960
Yeah, oh yeah.

369
00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:37,460
My first, my first ever, my first ever

370
00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:44,240
hack experience was at an old job many,

371
00:13:44,380 --> 00:13:45,240
many years ago.

372
00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:49,940
This is probably 96, 97.

373
00:13:50,540 --> 00:13:51,200
I don't remember.

374
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,860
But do you remember the University of Washington

375
00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:54,800
FTP server?

376
00:13:55,820 --> 00:13:57,680
Oh yeah, what was that?

377
00:13:58,280 --> 00:13:59,580
Yeah, it was just kind of like the

378
00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:02,480
standard FTP server that was shipped with like

379
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:03,540
Red Hat 6.

380
00:14:04,780 --> 00:14:06,060
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

381
00:14:06,060 --> 00:14:09,060
And FreeBSD and all that, you know, OpenBSD,

382
00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:13,500
they all used the UWFTP, the University of

383
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:14,680
Washington FTP server.

384
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,080
And so I fired it up because I

385
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,340
needed to, I needed to push some files

386
00:14:23,340 --> 00:14:27,960
up from a different location and forgot to

387
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:28,700
turn it off.

388
00:14:28,820 --> 00:14:30,260
It was only going to be temporary and

389
00:14:30,260 --> 00:14:31,260
forgot to turn it off.

390
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:35,200
And of course, I mean, like within 24

391
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,320
hours, it was hit.

392
00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:40,340
I got a call saying, hey, our website,

393
00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:42,360
like the front page of our website has

394
00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,580
something weird on it.

395
00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:45,240
And I'll go and look at it.

396
00:14:45,380 --> 00:14:47,160
The website had been defaced.

397
00:14:47,940 --> 00:14:49,400
You know, this was back in the days

398
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,540
where hacking wasn't really for money yet.

399
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,460
People just wanted to like deface your website

400
00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:57,520
so they could say, I've been here, look,

401
00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:58,180
I own you.

402
00:14:58,920 --> 00:14:59,360
Exactly.

403
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,440
Back when it was fun, in the good

404
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:01,960
old days.

405
00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:03,520
We were just having fun, man.

406
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,400
Don't get your panties in a bunch.

407
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,760
Yeah, back before ransomware and all that.

408
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:09,700
And so I was like, I mean, I

409
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:11,740
was, gosh, I don't even know how old

410
00:15:11,740 --> 00:15:12,900
I was, 20.

411
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,040
I was like, oh crap, you know, freaked

412
00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,640
out, finally figured out where it came from.

413
00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:21,140
And from like then on, I've been Mr.

414
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,360
non-standard port, firewall, everything, just like so

415
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:26,840
paranoid.

416
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,120
It only takes once.

417
00:15:28,260 --> 00:15:29,040
It only takes once.

418
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:29,700
No kidding.

419
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:33,060
So the SSHD config you gave me, that

420
00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:34,800
basically shuts everything off.

421
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:36,940
There's no, they can't log in any other

422
00:15:36,940 --> 00:15:41,460
way than with the public key.

423
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,040
Right, okay.

424
00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:42,700
Right, yep.

425
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,420
Because I can see that actually trying to

426
00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:47,700
use the password, which is an actual path

427
00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:52,440
on the machine, which is an odd combination

428
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:53,000
to try.

429
00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:56,580
Now, it's a file path they're using as

430
00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:57,060
the password?

431
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,040
Yeah, I just saw it, just tried that,

432
00:15:59,180 --> 00:15:59,680
trying everything.

433
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,560
This guy's like, man, my Bitcoin, my Bitcoin's

434
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,340
on that machine.

435
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:05,740
How do I get my Bitcoin?

436
00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:06,940
How do I find that Bitcoin?

437
00:16:06,940 --> 00:16:09,040
Is that Bitcoin on my machine somewhere now?

438
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,180
Man, I had four sats on there, dang

439
00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:11,280
it.

440
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,640
Can't be much more.

441
00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:18,140
Okay, that tells me, actually, that may be,

442
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,920
if they're using a file path, that could

443
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:27,720
be a file traversal vulnerability and some sort

444
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,480
of web thing that you have going on.

445
00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:32,320
I'm presuming that they were already in there.

446
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,660
I mean, they could be looking at NGINX,

447
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,240
because port 80 is open, 8,000 is

448
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:41,920
open, 8080 is open.

449
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:45,880
But they're not on those ports, though.

450
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:49,640
If they're able to upload, if you have

451
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,780
a file traversal vulnerability or a file upload

452
00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:56,760
vulnerability in one of the web, in one

453
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,000
of your web things that you're serving, then

454
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,020
that would allow an attacker to upload something

455
00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:06,420
to the box into a location on the

456
00:17:06,420 --> 00:17:09,859
file system they specify, then come in later

457
00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:16,000
and address that file they uploaded in an

458
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,140
SSH login or some other attempt.

459
00:17:19,260 --> 00:17:22,500
So they could be, essentially, they backdoor you

460
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:27,560
by uploading through an existing open hole in

461
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:28,780
your web.

462
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:31,520
I mean, I would, you know, there's no

463
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,600
telling what's in that Python script that you're

464
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:33,960
using.

465
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,140
It may have- Could be all kinds

466
00:17:38,140 --> 00:17:39,140
of groovy stuff in there.

467
00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:40,840
It may be allowing all kinds of stuff.

468
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,860
I mean, is it using like Jenkins or

469
00:17:43,860 --> 00:17:44,780
some sort of Python?

470
00:17:45,060 --> 00:17:45,520
No.

471
00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:46,600
Jenkins?

472
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:48,660
Web framework or something like that?

473
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:54,680
Unfortunately, I am using Flask on, I wonder

474
00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:55,900
if Flask has a vulnerability.

475
00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:57,960
It could, yeah, it could.

476
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,600
It's a very common thing in CMS is

477
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,700
to allow- Stick something in there.

478
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:06,400
Like, oh, I got something for later.

479
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,040
Upload.

480
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:08,820
A little candy, a little candy for later

481
00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:09,480
on, everybody.

482
00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:11,060
Bastards.

483
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,440
Nah, so far, it seems they're having trouble.

484
00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:15,240
Okay, we're good.

485
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:15,740
Yeah.

486
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:20,200
Anyway, so do you have anything on, I

487
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:21,260
got some stuff, I don't know, do you

488
00:18:21,260 --> 00:18:22,940
have anything on your list for today?

489
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,900
Oh yeah, I've got tons of stuff, always.

490
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:32,390
And if I could bring up my notes.

491
00:18:33,230 --> 00:18:33,910
You go ahead, I'm trying to bring it

492
00:18:33,910 --> 00:18:34,010
up.

493
00:18:34,010 --> 00:18:36,890
Well, the main thing, I guess, there were

494
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:37,850
two things on my list.

495
00:18:38,030 --> 00:18:41,490
The big thing was AI tagging, which Power

496
00:18:41,490 --> 00:18:43,570
had, we're talking about that quite a bit

497
00:18:43,570 --> 00:18:44,630
on the show this week.

498
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:45,550
It's on my list too, yep.

499
00:18:45,790 --> 00:18:50,090
And then censorship is podcast index.

500
00:18:50,370 --> 00:18:52,430
Is it really censorship resistant?

501
00:18:53,790 --> 00:18:56,490
Well, you know, the AI tagging thing, I've

502
00:18:56,490 --> 00:18:57,470
also got that on my list.

503
00:18:57,610 --> 00:18:59,290
And I've also, I just got some, I

504
00:18:59,290 --> 00:19:01,270
mean, I think we just need to probably

505
00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:02,870
talk about AI stuff in general.

506
00:19:03,850 --> 00:19:05,670
I mean, not that we don't talk about

507
00:19:05,670 --> 00:19:07,270
it every freaking week.

508
00:19:07,570 --> 00:19:10,670
Well, for two years, everyone's been saying, oh

509
00:19:10,670 --> 00:19:12,330
yeah, yeah, AI is a new thing in

510
00:19:12,330 --> 00:19:13,050
podcasting.

511
00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:13,910
And here we are.

512
00:19:14,810 --> 00:19:15,730
Surprise, surprise.

513
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:18,230
It's here.

514
00:19:19,670 --> 00:19:22,470
I mean, I think the word that hit

515
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:28,860
me this morning was after listening to James's

516
00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:29,220
interview.

517
00:19:29,220 --> 00:19:32,060
Yes, with what the lady's name?

518
00:19:32,660 --> 00:19:32,760
Janine.

519
00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:32,940
Janine.

520
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:33,740
Wainthright.

521
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,060
No, not Wainthright.

522
00:19:35,420 --> 00:19:36,380
Janine something.

523
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:38,820
Wainthright.

524
00:19:40,340 --> 00:19:42,620
Right, Janine Wright.

525
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:43,440
Janine Wright.

526
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,260
Co-founder, CEO of Inception Point AI, yes.

527
00:19:47,580 --> 00:19:51,240
I mean, the thing, the word that hit

528
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,540
me this morning was creative hyperinflation.

529
00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:58,780
I think that's what, I think that's what

530
00:19:58,780 --> 00:19:59,880
we're beginning to live through.

531
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,000
I like that, creative hyperinflation.

532
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:09,760
Yeah, I mean, like I wrote, as I've

533
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,300
been thinking about this on and off all

534
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:16,120
week, and we talked a little bit about

535
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,740
this last week, where if there's a way

536
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:23,240
for somebody to farm content for money, it's

537
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:24,240
gonna happen.

538
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,660
That, you know, like that guy Tanner Campbell

539
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:31,520
from a long time ago, I think, did

540
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:32,640
we have him on the show?

541
00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:34,460
No, I don't remember if we did.

542
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,940
No, I don't think so, no.

543
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,800
But I mean, he had this whole thing

544
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,200
where he's like, here's how you make money

545
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:41,100
in podcasting.

546
00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:47,360
You go and buy, you put your podcast

547
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,580
on Spotify using Anchor, then you go buy

548
00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:54,380
a bunch of Facebook ads pointing to your

549
00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:58,000
Spotify podcast.

550
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:02,600
And then you buy, then you do, and

551
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,380
that gives you enough hits to enter Spotify's

552
00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:12,140
mark, like a creator advertising program or whatever.

553
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,940
And that gets you, it was this whole

554
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:19,980
formula, this spreadsheet saying how you could take,

555
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,860
you could launch a show and within six

556
00:21:23,860 --> 00:21:27,200
months have X number of dollars coming in

557
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,140
through ad revenue using, you know, essentially farming

558
00:21:31,140 --> 00:21:31,880
the system.

559
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:33,160
Yeah, sure.

560
00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:40,000
And, you know, that's how this stuff works.

561
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:46,360
And AI is the latest version of a

562
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:47,560
farming scheme.

563
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,000
I mean, that's what we're dealing with, the,

564
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,960
you know, in Inception Point or whatever, you

565
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,060
know, I think that's the name of that

566
00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:57,400
company.

567
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:58,460
Inception Point AI.

568
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,360
Yeah, that's what this is.

569
00:22:01,660 --> 00:22:03,740
This is just a, this is a ad

570
00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:06,560
revenue farming mechanism.

571
00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:10,480
And that's not to say, like, that doesn't

572
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,100
mean that it's, I'm not making a moral

573
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:16,200
judgment on it at this point, because people,

574
00:22:16,940 --> 00:22:18,620
lots of people have been doing this since

575
00:22:18,620 --> 00:22:19,620
the web started.

576
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:23,580
This content farms, quote unquote, have been around

577
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:26,140
for many years now on the web.

578
00:22:26,860 --> 00:22:34,080
And at scale, at a high enough scale,

579
00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:36,520
okay, well, let me back up and do

580
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:36,860
it like this.

581
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,520
So when I'm thinking about whether the index

582
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,600
should ingest this stuff or not, you know,

583
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,740
right now we are, and I don't, I

584
00:22:47,740 --> 00:22:49,640
do not anticipate that we would stop.

585
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:57,660
But in general, digital has a huge drawback.

586
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,120
And that is that creating new information that

587
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:07,660
will then have to be stored forever is

588
00:23:07,660 --> 00:23:08,300
too easy.

589
00:23:10,220 --> 00:23:12,920
There's not enough of a cost to it.

590
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,840
You know, imagine if there were a book,

591
00:23:16,980 --> 00:23:18,300
like a physical book, okay.

592
00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:21,660
Imagine if there was a book creation machine

593
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:23,800
that someone create, that someone built.

594
00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:29,780
In this book creation machine, there's actually a

595
00:23:29,780 --> 00:23:32,120
short story that's very similar to this.

596
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,280
I'll have to look it up and find

597
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:34,020
a link to it later.

598
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,540
Or it's not about this kind of thing,

599
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:37,380
but it's very similar.

600
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:42,580
Imagine if there was a book creation machine

601
00:23:42,580 --> 00:23:47,420
that would create new books at a rate

602
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:50,700
of like 10 trillion books a day.

603
00:23:53,060 --> 00:23:57,480
Within a few years, the entire surface of

604
00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,860
the earth would be covered seven feet deep

605
00:23:59,860 --> 00:24:00,260
in books.

606
00:24:00,260 --> 00:24:02,240
With books, yeah, a lot of books, a

607
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:02,720
lot of books.

608
00:24:03,120 --> 00:24:08,440
So that's essentially what we have now with

609
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:14,860
LLMs. We have the ability to create virtually

610
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:18,620
infinite amounts of, quote, creative.

611
00:24:20,470 --> 00:24:25,440
And that information, if it is then pumped

612
00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:33,600
into standard channels of distribution, it is going

613
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:39,280
to overwhelm the digital platforms that exist.

614
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,000
So this is actually very interesting because I

615
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,420
kept hearing James talk about, well, whatever the

616
00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:47,580
advertisers want.

617
00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:49,520
And my initial response is, what?

618
00:24:50,260 --> 00:24:52,280
Advertisers don't determine what we do.

619
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:56,180
But now I get it because the advertisers

620
00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:58,460
are effectively being duped.

621
00:24:58,580 --> 00:25:00,640
Well, and the question is, are they being

622
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:01,020
duped?

623
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:03,160
When it comes to downloads, yeah, I think

624
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:03,520
so.

625
00:25:05,140 --> 00:25:09,460
And so when you have in your model,

626
00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:12,160
so you have 3,000, you have 5

627
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,440
,000 podcasts creating 3,000 episodes a week.

628
00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:19,140
And you can hear that they have two

629
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:20,860
ads in front of every single one of

630
00:25:20,860 --> 00:25:25,200
them, which probably are not even listened to.

631
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,800
And we know from my own experimentation, you

632
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,860
can create download bots quite easily.

633
00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:33,540
There's only one hosting company that really blocks

634
00:25:33,540 --> 00:25:36,440
anything that they don't see as an approved

635
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:37,360
user agent.

636
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,980
Everyone else, if you use Mozilla, obviously.

637
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,660
In fact, everyone accepts Mozilla, but not from

638
00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:49,720
certain IP addresses.

639
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,860
So if you're building a bot farm on

640
00:25:52,860 --> 00:25:55,440
Linode, you're gonna be disappointed by at least

641
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,140
one host.

642
00:25:56,140 --> 00:26:00,440
But in general, from what I see, I

643
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,700
could do that for every other hosting company.

644
00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:06,480
And in fact, I could do a version

645
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,340
of what we did when we initially filled

646
00:26:08,340 --> 00:26:10,200
up the podcast index is I could just

647
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,580
get a million, a million downloads, 4 million

648
00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:16,120
downloads or 4 million accesses, whatever you wanna

649
00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:17,960
call it, over time.

650
00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:21,620
And that would be a nice little bit

651
00:26:21,620 --> 00:26:22,500
of pocket change.

652
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:25,360
I don't think I'd get rich on it,

653
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:26,320
but yeah, it'd be nice.

654
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,920
Yeah, just some nice little coin in my

655
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:29,240
pocket.

656
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,040
And so that's the problem.

657
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,580
The whole AI tag is not for you,

658
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:35,580
not for me, not for Joe, the listener,

659
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:37,560
because Joe, the listener will know very quickly,

660
00:26:37,660 --> 00:26:38,380
oh, that sucks.

661
00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:40,900
Or it's AI, but I kind of like

662
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:43,620
the information, but it's the advertisers.

663
00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:45,800
That's who everyone's trying to protect in this

664
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,720
is it's going to flood the advertising ecosystem.

665
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,760
And that's where the problem is going to

666
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:51,880
be.

667
00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:53,060
I think that's what you're saying.

668
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,420
Yeah, because this is essentially a audio version

669
00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:00,200
of what if it was done on Google,

670
00:27:00,380 --> 00:27:02,900
we would call kind of click fraud.

671
00:27:04,340 --> 00:27:06,160
Yeah, kind of, complete.

672
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,980
Not just kind of, it is click fraud.

673
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,080
I recommend everybody listen to James's interview with

674
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,100
the- Janine Wright.

675
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:18,260
With Janine Wright.

676
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:20,740
What was your takeaway?

677
00:27:20,860 --> 00:27:21,900
What's your takeaway from it?

678
00:27:27,220 --> 00:27:29,060
She seemed very uncomfortable.

679
00:27:30,940 --> 00:27:33,800
To me, that was a general sense that

680
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,220
I got.

681
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:36,400
And I don't blame her, I would be

682
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:36,660
too.

683
00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:41,020
If there was, I commend her for coming

684
00:27:41,020 --> 00:27:41,620
on the show.

685
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,060
Sure.

686
00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:44,360
And actually doing the interview.

687
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:49,160
But I think she did sound uncomfortable.

688
00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,160
I also think that this sounds very much

689
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,000
like a company who's looking to get purchased.

690
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,280
I don't think this is a long-term

691
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,340
thing for them.

692
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,680
This seems to me more like a, hey,

693
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,540
look what we're doing.

694
00:28:05,780 --> 00:28:09,020
Somebody, we've got some really cool tech.

695
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:10,540
Somebody needs to come buy us.

696
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:14,800
And to me, that feels like what this

697
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:15,720
whole thing is.

698
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,240
It's just essentially like an idea flip.

699
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:20,140
Interesting.

700
00:28:20,140 --> 00:28:24,960
But, and so in that regard, having, being

701
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,700
on an interview like this, this is an

702
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:29,860
all news is good news type situation.

703
00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:32,200
People get mad.

704
00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:34,600
Maybe people in the podcast industry get mad,

705
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:36,520
but that doesn't really mean anything in the

706
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,320
ultimate scheme of things if they flip the

707
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,100
company and get paid.

708
00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:45,940
So for their admittedly pretty cool technology.

709
00:28:46,780 --> 00:28:52,740
And, but then, but, I mean, long-term,

710
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,260
who knows how this thing goes?

711
00:28:58,950 --> 00:29:06,320
I think James's questions, I think what he

712
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,240
was getting at was obvious, which is, it's

713
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,280
not about the AI part.

714
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,460
It's about, is there a human doing anything?

715
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,900
Is there- Oh, even writing the script.

716
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:22,640
Yeah, even writing the script is where James

717
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:23,060
was going.

718
00:29:23,620 --> 00:29:24,000
Right.

719
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,440
Yeah, and if there's not, if there's absolutely

720
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,520
no human oversight whatsoever, then it really is

721
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:35,260
just like the book generator machine.

722
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:37,640
Yeah, but the point is some of it

723
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:38,840
may actually be enjoyable.

724
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,160
Some of it may be what people like.

725
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,270
In fact, a lot of it may be

726
00:29:46,270 --> 00:29:46,950
what people like.

727
00:29:47,030 --> 00:29:49,830
If you look at the comments on some

728
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:52,610
of these AI podcasts, yeah, a lot of

729
00:29:52,610 --> 00:29:54,230
them are like, this is crap, this is

730
00:29:54,230 --> 00:29:55,290
no good, this is AI.

731
00:29:55,430 --> 00:29:56,750
But some of them are like, well, well,

732
00:29:56,750 --> 00:29:58,950
I do that knitting stitch differently and it

733
00:29:58,950 --> 00:30:00,090
works quite well for me.

734
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:03,130
You know, so not everyone, clearly not everyone

735
00:30:03,130 --> 00:30:04,250
thinks it's slop.

736
00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:10,790
Yeah, my question would be, does anyone think

737
00:30:10,790 --> 00:30:14,090
that it's, does anyone understand that it's actually

738
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:14,450
AI?

739
00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:17,210
Yeah, I think a lot of people do.

740
00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:20,570
The ones who respond positively.

741
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:23,650
Do you think- They might not, no,

742
00:30:23,710 --> 00:30:24,290
they might not.

743
00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:26,570
They might not, they, I don't know.

744
00:30:27,530 --> 00:30:28,770
I mean, a lot of people are talking

745
00:30:28,770 --> 00:30:30,350
to their AIs and they don't seem to

746
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:31,190
have a problem with it.

747
00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:33,970
So if they don't mind their own personal

748
00:30:33,970 --> 00:30:35,830
AI talking to them, maybe they don't mind

749
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:36,750
a podcast AI.

750
00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:39,770
You know, not everybody in the world is

751
00:30:39,770 --> 00:30:40,210
normal.

752
00:30:40,830 --> 00:30:42,970
Hey, man, some people are weird.

753
00:30:43,350 --> 00:30:46,290
Wow, is this a new discovery that you've

754
00:30:46,290 --> 00:30:47,290
made?

755
00:30:47,910 --> 00:30:50,190
Like somebody who gets their knitting tips from

756
00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:54,610
an artificial intelligence voice, that's- Yeah, you'd

757
00:30:54,610 --> 00:30:54,790
be surprised.

758
00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:56,730
I'm willing to say that not everybody is

759
00:30:56,730 --> 00:30:58,850
like, you know, a hundred percent.

760
00:31:00,510 --> 00:31:03,490
I've been reading this book, I just started

761
00:31:03,490 --> 00:31:03,750
it.

762
00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:07,190
Do you know a guy named Paul Kingsnorth?

763
00:31:07,910 --> 00:31:09,030
No, I don't think so.

764
00:31:09,650 --> 00:31:14,510
Lives in Ireland and he's got an interesting

765
00:31:14,510 --> 00:31:15,050
background.

766
00:31:15,370 --> 00:31:21,790
He's a Catholic brother, but he came from

767
00:31:21,790 --> 00:31:25,790
an, like an ecology, what would you call

768
00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:26,010
that?

769
00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:27,870
Like a, he was part of, do you

770
00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:29,610
remember Earth First?

771
00:31:31,010 --> 00:31:32,310
Why does this ring a bell?

772
00:31:32,410 --> 00:31:33,490
I can't recall it.

773
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:38,910
They were like a, they were like a

774
00:31:38,910 --> 00:31:46,620
70s version of stop the oil or whatever

775
00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:48,860
those people are that like glue themselves to

776
00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:49,360
the street.

777
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,500
Oh, X something.

778
00:31:56,340 --> 00:31:58,240
Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

779
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,300
Yeah, like it was, they were like a

780
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:04,140
radical environmentalists.

781
00:32:04,140 --> 00:32:07,780
Okay, and I'm, I don't, yeah, I think

782
00:32:07,780 --> 00:32:08,500
that's a fair thing.

783
00:32:08,620 --> 00:32:10,360
I think they would accept that they were

784
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,600
radical environmentalists.

785
00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:13,620
I think that movement collapsed.

786
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,920
There's actually a book about it that I

787
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,000
have on the shelf.

788
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,820
I haven't even read it yet.

789
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,500
I've only perused it, but it's about the

790
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:29,160
Earth First movement and how it collapsed and

791
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,020
set back environmentalism a long way.

792
00:32:31,780 --> 00:32:33,760
But he was a member of that and

793
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,220
that kind of thing.

794
00:32:34,260 --> 00:32:35,840
But anyway, so he just wrote a book

795
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,360
called Against the Machine.

796
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,040
And it's a book just about modernism, industrialism,

797
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:51,720
technology, technologism, that kind of thing.

798
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,620
It's a very, it's just a book that

799
00:32:54,620 --> 00:32:59,000
you would think is pretty fitting for our

800
00:32:59,000 --> 00:32:59,340
time.

801
00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:04,860
And I've got, I actually wanna read a

802
00:33:04,860 --> 00:33:07,040
section of this real quick, because I think

803
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,680
this is kind of like, I think he

804
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:09,780
captures something here.

805
00:33:10,620 --> 00:33:13,800
He says, and forgive me for the length

806
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:14,040
of this.

807
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,200
He says, meanwhile, out in what is fondly

808
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,520
called the real world by people who often

809
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,700
don't know very much about reality, you are

810
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:25,260
living in a metastasizing machine, which is closing

811
00:33:25,260 --> 00:33:27,860
in around you, polluting your skies and your

812
00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:30,060
woods and your past and your imagination.

813
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,600
If you have the kind of sensibility which

814
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,760
prefers Lothlorien to Isengard, this means that you

815
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,660
are a character in a tragedy rather than

816
00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:38,520
a heroic epic.

817
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,980
Most of the things you like are fading

818
00:33:41,980 --> 00:33:42,400
away.

819
00:33:42,820 --> 00:33:45,420
The great forests and the stories made in

820
00:33:45,420 --> 00:33:48,880
and by them, the strange cultures spanning centuries

821
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,600
of time, the little pubs and the curious

822
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,560
uninhabited places, the thrumming temples and dark marshlands

823
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,300
and crooked villages and folktales and conviviality and

824
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:03,720
spontaneous song and old houses, beaches and wild

825
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,320
hilltops, the chance of getting lost in the

826
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,840
rain forever or discovering something that was never

827
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,500
on any map, a world without maps, a

828
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:13,300
world without engines.

829
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:16,020
This world you can see is on the

830
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:16,500
way out.

831
00:34:17,739 --> 00:34:20,380
If it is not already long gone, the

832
00:34:20,380 --> 00:34:22,900
one thing is manifesting to replace it is

833
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:26,300
a left brain paradise, all straight lines and

834
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:29,159
concrete car parks where the corn exchange used

835
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:29,520
to be.

836
00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:33,739
The future is STEM and chatbots and cashless

837
00:34:33,739 --> 00:34:38,020
parking meters and economic growth and asteroid mining

838
00:34:38,020 --> 00:34:39,199
forever and ever.

839
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,219
There is no arguing with it.

840
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:43,600
You can feel the great craters that it

841
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:44,460
makes in the world.

842
00:34:45,060 --> 00:34:47,520
You can feel what is being tarmacked and

843
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,199
neatened and rationalized into oblivion in the depth

844
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,760
of what is leaving, but you cannot explain

845
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,880
or justify it in the terms which are

846
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,160
now the terms we live by.

847
00:34:57,860 --> 00:34:59,460
You just know that something is wrong.

848
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,040
Everybody tells you that you feel this because

849
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,120
you're infected with something called nostalgia or that

850
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:07,940
you picked up a dose of Luddite-ism

851
00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:10,740
or romanticism at a party or in a

852
00:35:10,740 --> 00:35:11,700
doctor's waiting room.

853
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,180
Basically, there is something wrong with you.

854
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,140
You don't understand progress, which is always and

855
00:35:17,140 --> 00:35:19,400
everywhere a good thing, but you can feel

856
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,160
something going on that is not a good

857
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,700
thing and it doesn't matter how many lies,

858
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:25,860
damn lies or statistics are produced to prove

859
00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:26,260
otherwise.

860
00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:28,860
You can feel this as something enveloping you.

861
00:35:29,700 --> 00:35:31,960
The Welsh poet R.S. Thomas described it

862
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,020
chillingly in his poem, Other, in a verse

863
00:35:35,020 --> 00:35:36,920
I've never forgotten since I first read it.

864
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:41,760
The machine appeared in the distance, singing to

865
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,520
itself of money.

866
00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:45,860
Its song was the web.

867
00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:49,380
They were caught in, men and women together.

868
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,360
The villages were as flies to be sucked

869
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:52,760
empty.

870
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:55,040
God secreted a tear.

871
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,600
Enough, enough, he commanded, but the machine looked

872
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:58,840
at him and went on singing.

873
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:02,880
Now, that's depressing.

874
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,680
It reminds me a little bit of, what

875
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,020
was the Neil Stephens' book?

876
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:11,580
I think it was, was it Snow Crash?

877
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,460
I think it was Snow Crash.

878
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,560
Snow Crash, yeah.

879
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,580
Yeah, where the only thing left in real

880
00:36:16,580 --> 00:36:19,680
life was food delivery and FedEx.

881
00:36:20,140 --> 00:36:21,140
Yeah, right.

882
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,200
Everything else was online and everything got hacked

883
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:25,940
all the time, basically.

884
00:36:25,940 --> 00:36:29,480
It says, he says, you can feel something

885
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,220
going on that's not a good thing, and

886
00:36:31,220 --> 00:36:33,140
it doesn't matter how many lies, damn lies,

887
00:36:33,180 --> 00:36:36,540
or statistics are produced to prove otherwise.

888
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,860
You can feel it's something enveloping you.

889
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:41,420
That's what I heard in that interview.

890
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:41,860
Yeah.

891
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,840
Is, look, this is fine.

892
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,180
What we're doing is fine because let me

893
00:36:47,180 --> 00:36:48,300
give you some statistics.

894
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,660
Let me tell you why in 24 months

895
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,280
everything's going to be AI and none of

896
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,540
this is even going to be an issue

897
00:36:58,540 --> 00:36:58,980
anymore.

898
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,980
None of those arguments truly matter because you

899
00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:06,560
could tell that what James was was, was

900
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,900
uncomfortable with this.

901
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,400
He's uncomfortable with something about the way this

902
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:13,460
thing is being done.

903
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:14,080
Yeah.

904
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,300
And I think the uncomfortableness is what Paul

905
00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:18,880
Kingsnorth is referring to here.

906
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,680
It's, and it's like we talked about a

907
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,100
couple of weeks ago, being part of the

908
00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:33,600
push right now with AI is to get

909
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,040
us to be comfortable with it because so

910
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:39,100
many of us are.

911
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:42,980
It's an attempt to flood the zone with

912
00:37:42,980 --> 00:37:49,840
so much AI content that we become sort

913
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:54,800
of numb to the thing that is, you

914
00:37:54,800 --> 00:38:01,020
know how sometimes you have like a, I

915
00:38:01,020 --> 00:38:02,400
think a lot of us have had this

916
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:03,280
experience in the past.

917
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,700
Somebody new comes into our life, somebody that's

918
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:11,120
like a new acquaintance or friend of the

919
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,460
family or something like this.

920
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,400
And this new person comes in and, you

921
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,720
know, and starts to, you know, through connections

922
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,500
that we have in the community or whatever.

923
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,100
And this new friend begins to be around

924
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:26,220
us more, around our family more and that

925
00:38:26,220 --> 00:38:26,640
kind of thing.

926
00:38:27,340 --> 00:38:30,840
And there's something that just makes you uncomfortable

927
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:31,680
about this person.

928
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:32,980
You can't pinpoint it.

929
00:38:33,780 --> 00:38:37,900
You can't, there's nothing explicit that they have

930
00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:40,060
done that is, that you can point and

931
00:38:40,060 --> 00:38:41,720
say that I don't like, I think this

932
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:43,820
person's dangerous or concerning or whatever.

933
00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:46,480
But there's just something about that person that

934
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,520
you just, that bothers you, makes you uncomfortable.

935
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,480
You think they may not be trustworthy or

936
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:52,900
whatever.

937
00:38:55,140 --> 00:38:58,660
And the longer you sort of deny that,

938
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,540
that sort of, that internal feeling you have,

939
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,240
you numb yourself to it.

940
00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:07,860
And then you may find out later, you

941
00:39:07,860 --> 00:39:11,260
know, this guy ends up, I don't know,

942
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:12,260
in jail or something.

943
00:39:14,380 --> 00:39:17,320
Your concerns were validated.

944
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,000
And you think, you know, I knew there

945
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,220
was something wrong with that guy.

946
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,040
I knew it the whole time, but I

947
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,440
sort of seared my conscience against it.

948
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:28,800
Right.

949
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,980
And I think that's what's happening now with

950
00:39:32,980 --> 00:39:34,880
a lot of the, with AI.

951
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,580
I think we are getting, we're getting, this

952
00:39:38,580 --> 00:39:41,600
is a, we're living through a phase of

953
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,820
desensitization.

954
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,300
Oh, for sure.

955
00:39:46,620 --> 00:39:47,100
You know?

956
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:48,640
Yeah, oh, definitely.

957
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:54,420
And honestly, I think that's why podcasting is

958
00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:58,380
so wonderful because I don't believe any AI

959
00:39:58,380 --> 00:40:02,540
in our lifetime will be able to recreate

960
00:40:02,540 --> 00:40:05,140
a human being speaking in your head.

961
00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:10,240
Video takes away so much of the recognition

962
00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:13,880
that, hey, this is not real, because it

963
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,640
just, you look at something and your brain

964
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:16,420
goes, that's real.

965
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,760
And audio is a whole different beast.

966
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:23,060
Yeah.

967
00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:29,680
I guess I would say to that, but

968
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:30,520
what if it does?

969
00:40:31,580 --> 00:40:31,940
Okay.

970
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,860
Then you become jelly.

971
00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:38,520
What more can I say?

972
00:40:38,940 --> 00:40:39,640
You're screwed.

973
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,600
Nate, this is acclimation to institutification.

974
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,640
There's a- More of it, as far

975
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:51,340
as I'm concerned.

976
00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:54,280
The more, that's the only way.

977
00:40:54,820 --> 00:40:57,900
The more slop we create, the more that's

978
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:01,640
published, which I'm actually quite happy with, publish

979
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,100
as much slop as possible because ultimately that's

980
00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:06,000
going to lead to entropy.

981
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:07,860
I just don't see any, I don't see

982
00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:09,960
how they can protect themselves against it.

983
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,820
It just seems impossible.

984
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,620
So we might as well go now.

985
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:18,300
I mean, again, the no agenda art generator,

986
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:21,940
which for 15 years, people have been making

987
00:41:21,940 --> 00:41:23,300
art and uploading it.

988
00:41:23,380 --> 00:41:24,200
They've all stopped.

989
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,360
Every single one of them who was making

990
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:27,200
art by hand.

991
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,080
And they've either gone away or some of

992
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,060
them may be doing some prompting, but it's

993
00:41:35,060 --> 00:41:35,460
crap.

994
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,180
I mean, it's so disappointing.

995
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,460
Yeah, there's a couple of people who have

996
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:42,420
gotten around some of it, but you can

997
00:41:42,420 --> 00:41:42,880
see it.

998
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,400
You can see the washed out images.

999
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Everything's orange, the cartoon phase, or everything's a

1000
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:48,120
cartoon.

1001
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,380
Now you can just see these things ingesting

1002
00:41:51,380 --> 00:41:53,620
crap and spitting it back out.

1003
00:41:53,660 --> 00:41:54,740
And it's just worse.

1004
00:41:55,140 --> 00:41:56,620
I can literally see it.

1005
00:41:57,020 --> 00:42:01,520
And now you're, an academic paper could be

1006
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,320
written about the no agenda art generator.

1007
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:04,020
Absolutely.

1008
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,000
Someone should do that.

1009
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:10,820
And you can see, and now what happens

1010
00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:16,460
is your, is the no agenda show album

1011
00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:22,200
art is almost indistinguishable from something like the

1012
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,240
media round table.

1013
00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:24,220
Yes.

1014
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,000
Whereas used to, they used to be complete.

1015
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,420
You would never associate those two, but now

1016
00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:29,940
you scroll through your list.

1017
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,520
Since y'all are both essentially having AI

1018
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,760
generated artwork, they just kind of blur into,

1019
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:38,700
they look like they're the same thing.

1020
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:39,020
Yeah.

1021
00:42:39,180 --> 00:42:41,680
And orange is the predominant color for some

1022
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:41,940
reason.

1023
00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:42,860
I'm not sure why.

1024
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,080
That's true.

1025
00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:45,320
Yeah, I don't know why either.

1026
00:42:45,660 --> 00:42:47,620
Orange just seems to keep popping up.

1027
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,340
Everything, faces are orange, backgrounds are orange.

1028
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,060
Orange is a favorite color.

1029
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:53,660
Fish are orange.

1030
00:42:54,980 --> 00:42:56,000
It's just weird.

1031
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:56,640
I'm scrolling.

1032
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:57,860
It's like, everything's orange.

1033
00:42:58,060 --> 00:42:58,920
Everything is orange.

1034
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,080
I don't have an answer.

1035
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:04,320
And there, that's another part of the desensitization.

1036
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,960
I think that one thing I took away

1037
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:13,550
from James's interview was just, he was pushed.

1038
00:43:13,790 --> 00:43:14,290
Sadness.

1039
00:43:14,790 --> 00:43:15,090
Sadness.

1040
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:16,090
Sadness.

1041
00:43:16,310 --> 00:43:18,570
I heard sadness is what I heard.

1042
00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:19,310
Melancholy.

1043
00:43:19,610 --> 00:43:20,750
Yeah, right, right.

1044
00:43:21,370 --> 00:43:25,190
But it's the, he was respectful and did

1045
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:27,870
not push too hard, but it was the

1046
00:43:27,870 --> 00:43:30,890
thing, it was the, what was unsaid was

1047
00:43:30,890 --> 00:43:31,730
just as powerful.

1048
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:32,330
Yeah.

1049
00:43:32,410 --> 00:43:35,150
And it made me think, you know what,

1050
00:43:35,210 --> 00:43:39,870
I need, I have got to resist being

1051
00:43:39,870 --> 00:43:45,430
consumed by just, oh well, it's the future.

1052
00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:48,330
I'm going to push back on that.

1053
00:43:48,430 --> 00:43:50,190
I'm going to resist even harder.

1054
00:43:51,130 --> 00:43:53,110
On a personal level, you mean?

1055
00:43:54,210 --> 00:43:54,730
Yeah.

1056
00:43:54,890 --> 00:43:55,170
Yeah.

1057
00:43:55,250 --> 00:44:00,310
I mean, like, you know, and ultimately I

1058
00:44:00,310 --> 00:44:05,080
don't think that, I don't think that we

1059
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,640
need to ban anything out of the index

1060
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:11,900
unless it gets out of control.

1061
00:44:11,980 --> 00:44:13,600
Now, if it gets out of control and

1062
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,220
you end up with the automatic book creation

1063
00:44:16,220 --> 00:44:18,800
machine and people start pumping in a million

1064
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,480
podcasts a day, we are going to stop

1065
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:22,800
that.

1066
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,260
We're going to, there is a threshold somewhere

1067
00:44:26,260 --> 00:44:27,880
of which I do not know where it

1068
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,380
is at right now, but there is a

1069
00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:31,200
threshold of which we have to take action

1070
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,520
against this.

1071
00:44:33,980 --> 00:44:34,180
Yeah.

1072
00:44:34,220 --> 00:44:36,020
I don't think it's going to get that

1073
00:44:36,020 --> 00:44:36,320
far.

1074
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,040
I just don't see it.

1075
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,060
I mean, the thing with podcasts is there's

1076
00:44:40,060 --> 00:44:42,200
no real discovery mechanism.

1077
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,520
YouTube, yes, there's this discovery mechanism.

1078
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,640
And there's lots of ways you can get

1079
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:49,840
the algos to kick in and do things.

1080
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,500
And once you reach certain levels, then you're

1081
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:53,140
kind of golden.

1082
00:44:53,140 --> 00:44:55,520
You can fly along and that's when AI

1083
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:56,140
will be perfect.

1084
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:57,920
I mean, just go look for any topic

1085
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,600
on YouTube and you have to go through

1086
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,180
all the AI generated slop before you get

1087
00:45:03,180 --> 00:45:06,040
to something useful, an actual human being.

1088
00:45:06,460 --> 00:45:08,880
But with podcasts, like what's the recommendation machine?

1089
00:45:08,980 --> 00:45:11,820
This may be the biggest downside to podcasting,

1090
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:13,500
which is you really only hear about other

1091
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:15,780
podcasts from other people in other places.

1092
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:17,040
Like, oh, that's a good podcast.

1093
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:17,900
Oh, I'll go look it up.

1094
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,700
The biggest downside to podcasting may be its

1095
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:23,020
biggest defense.

1096
00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:27,220
Okay, that's an interesting thing because that was

1097
00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:28,880
part of what they were...

1098
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,160
Okay, one of the things she said in

1099
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,480
there was she was talking about the Charlie

1100
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:35,120
Kirk thing.

1101
00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:37,380
And she said, she gave the example of

1102
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:42,140
when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, we had a

1103
00:45:42,140 --> 00:45:45,240
podcast out about that within like two hours,

1104
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,180
I think is what she said.

1105
00:45:46,300 --> 00:45:47,680
Hey, there were books that were published the

1106
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:48,240
day before.

1107
00:45:49,260 --> 00:45:49,900
Oh, really?

1108
00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:51,660
Well, that's interesting.

1109
00:45:52,020 --> 00:45:54,580
If you believe the telegram groups, yeah.

1110
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:55,560
Oh, the telegram, okay.

1111
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,380
Such a, so trustworthy.

1112
00:45:57,380 --> 00:45:59,760
The old, hmm, how could this book be

1113
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,340
published on September 9th when Charlie Kirk died

1114
00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:03,000
on the 10th?

1115
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:04,280
Hmm, hmm.

1116
00:46:04,340 --> 00:46:04,860
Coincidence?

1117
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:06,160
Interesting coincidence, yeah.

1118
00:46:06,340 --> 00:46:07,200
All right, okay.

1119
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,180
Yes, like, so she's like, well, we had

1120
00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:13,720
a, we had a podcast out within two

1121
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:16,080
hours about Charlie Kirk and it went to

1122
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,720
number three on Spotify's list if you searched

1123
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:19,520
for Charlie Kirk.

1124
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:20,000
Wow.

1125
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,220
Okay, now, this caught my attention.

1126
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:25,200
Yeah.

1127
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,400
Because that's not the way that works.

1128
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:36,780
I'm sorry, but if you don't just create

1129
00:46:36,780 --> 00:46:40,820
a podcast, name it something that is like

1130
00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:44,120
some other search term and have it show

1131
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,140
up at the top of the list of

1132
00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:49,400
a platform like Spotify or Apple or even

1133
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:49,840
us.

1134
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,820
That you do not get, ranking is not

1135
00:46:53,820 --> 00:46:54,960
as simple as naming.

1136
00:46:56,300 --> 00:47:00,700
So there's, I don't know what, the only

1137
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:03,840
way that happens is if you pair it,

1138
00:47:04,180 --> 00:47:06,720
if you pair your podcast that you just

1139
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:10,000
created and stuck into the directory, if you

1140
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,660
pair it with some sort of traffic generation.

1141
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,140
Yeah, of course.

1142
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:15,580
You have to have- Popularity.

1143
00:47:15,940 --> 00:47:18,140
Yeah, search, search, search, search.

1144
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,240
Right, because you don't just create a podcast

1145
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,600
called Charlie Kirk and it instantly show up

1146
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:24,720
in the top three.

1147
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,680
Well, I would say that people probably went

1148
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:30,720
searching for Charlie Kirk on Spotify and they

1149
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:31,560
came across it.

1150
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:34,440
And if you, you know, juice the machine

1151
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,500
a little bit, it might move up far

1152
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:37,720
enough for people to catch it.

1153
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:40,400
But if, how, let me, I'm going to

1154
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,880
go to podcast index right now and search

1155
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,260
for Charlie Kirk, Charlie Kirk.

1156
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:54,520
And I mean, there's, there's like 30 results

1157
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,680
that show up immediately.

1158
00:47:56,700 --> 00:48:00,080
I mean, Inception Point AI, let's see, that

1159
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,260
is one, two, three, four.

1160
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,120
It's number four and number five.

1161
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,980
Number four, yeah, I see four and five,

1162
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:08,300
yeah.

1163
00:48:08,860 --> 00:48:11,500
How did it get to that level that

1164
00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:12,040
fast?

1165
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,840
Well, only you know how that works.

1166
00:48:16,660 --> 00:48:18,500
It works through traffic.

1167
00:48:18,940 --> 00:48:21,740
Right, so you don't think people just searching

1168
00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:25,220
for Charlie Kirk biography or Charlie Kirk death?

1169
00:48:25,660 --> 00:48:27,520
Those are good titles to search on.

1170
00:48:29,060 --> 00:48:31,280
If you search- Let's listen, let's listen

1171
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:31,920
for a second here.

1172
00:48:31,940 --> 00:48:33,080
I'm going to get an ad, of course.

1173
00:48:33,900 --> 00:48:34,800
When it comes to results.

1174
00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:36,620
Okay, I'll wait for the ad to go.

1175
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:38,880
Yeah, I'm giving him money.

1176
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:41,220
Yeah, I'm sorry.

1177
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:49,200
No, I mean, I have to admit, there

1178
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,260
must be a lot of metrics.

1179
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,220
There's either a ton of metrics- So

1180
00:48:54,220 --> 00:48:55,720
you're saying you have to have some kind

1181
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,840
of juicing machine inserted in order to get

1182
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:00,220
it there.

1183
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,000
It just can't happen organically.

1184
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,120
I would love to know if they're using

1185
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,480
something like MOPOD or something like that.

1186
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,300
At Pismata Valley University, I'm James Carter.

1187
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:12,960
And in this third and final installment of

1188
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,420
our series, we turn to legacy, investigation, and

1189
00:49:16,420 --> 00:49:18,420
the broader implications of this tragedy.

1190
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,760
My role as- They did three episodes

1191
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,040
on one day.

1192
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,720
Released at 6.59 PM, 7.01 PM,

1193
00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:29,040
and 7.03 PM.

1194
00:49:29,860 --> 00:49:31,940
So they made it look legit too.

1195
00:49:36,210 --> 00:49:40,610
This has got to be, there's got to

1196
00:49:40,610 --> 00:49:43,150
be something like one of those services that

1197
00:49:43,150 --> 00:49:46,550
are being employed to drive traffic is all

1198
00:49:46,550 --> 00:49:47,190
I can think.

1199
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:48,030
No, possible.

1200
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:52,170
You just don't go to the top of

1201
00:49:52,170 --> 00:49:55,850
the chart organically that fast.

1202
00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:57,170
It's just not possible.

1203
00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:01,230
So, I mean, this is not really, to

1204
00:50:01,230 --> 00:50:05,330
me, it's not really about the AI so

1205
00:50:05,330 --> 00:50:07,950
much as it's about like, you could do

1206
00:50:07,950 --> 00:50:09,850
this same thing that they're doing.

1207
00:50:09,970 --> 00:50:12,370
You could do that with a thousand anonymous

1208
00:50:12,370 --> 00:50:12,830
Indians.

1209
00:50:14,110 --> 00:50:14,790
You know?

1210
00:50:14,790 --> 00:50:17,310
I mean, at enough scale, at a big

1211
00:50:17,310 --> 00:50:22,130
enough scale, people, if you have a sufficient

1212
00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:26,130
quantity of people, you can also churn out

1213
00:50:26,130 --> 00:50:27,910
as much content as this does.

1214
00:50:28,050 --> 00:50:28,250
Yeah.

1215
00:50:29,170 --> 00:50:31,110
I mean, you know, if you hired a

1216
00:50:31,110 --> 00:50:34,590
thousand anonymous Indians as, you know, like Amazon

1217
00:50:34,590 --> 00:50:38,310
did for their, you know, for their stuff,

1218
00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:43,610
you could pump out just as much content.

1219
00:50:43,610 --> 00:50:45,210
3,000 episodes a week.

1220
00:50:46,730 --> 00:50:48,790
And, you know, and it would, all people

1221
00:50:48,790 --> 00:50:51,630
just copying, pasting off Wikipedia or something.

1222
00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:52,110
Yeah.

1223
00:50:52,430 --> 00:50:55,210
So, I mean, to me, it's not this

1224
00:50:55,210 --> 00:50:57,330
particular company.

1225
00:50:58,650 --> 00:51:00,850
Yes, they're doing it with AI in order

1226
00:51:00,850 --> 00:51:04,530
to, you know, increase their profit margin, but

1227
00:51:04,530 --> 00:51:07,550
they, you know, it's, this is not, the

1228
00:51:07,550 --> 00:51:10,350
AI is not the most interesting part of

1229
00:51:10,350 --> 00:51:10,950
this to me.

1230
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:16,490
It's just, how exactly are they juicing this

1231
00:51:16,490 --> 00:51:17,910
stuff into the charts?

1232
00:51:18,050 --> 00:51:18,570
Right, okay.

1233
00:51:18,930 --> 00:51:23,470
So, bottom line, it doesn't really hurt podcasting.

1234
00:51:23,550 --> 00:51:26,390
It could hurt platforms like the index.

1235
00:51:27,050 --> 00:51:28,470
If we're, you know, if there's a million

1236
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:33,030
submissions a day, the trillion book problem, that

1237
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:34,990
could just be a resource drain that becomes

1238
00:51:34,990 --> 00:51:35,470
a problem.

1239
00:51:36,050 --> 00:51:39,710
But it doesn't actually hurt podcasting to me

1240
00:51:39,710 --> 00:51:40,370
in any way.

1241
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:43,830
It hurts advertisers because they're being scammed.

1242
00:51:45,710 --> 00:51:48,710
That's- And the loop is, you know,

1243
00:51:48,770 --> 00:51:51,650
now the loop is complete because we already,

1244
00:51:51,890 --> 00:51:54,470
we know that download scams are happening whether

1245
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:56,290
it's by putting something in a game that

1246
00:51:56,290 --> 00:51:59,250
no one actually listens, it's just a download.

1247
00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:01,010
There's a million different ways to do it.

1248
00:52:01,710 --> 00:52:04,170
And Silicon Valley is filled with companies who

1249
00:52:04,170 --> 00:52:05,930
do this, you know, just before the board

1250
00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:06,210
meeting.

1251
00:52:06,290 --> 00:52:08,030
Look at our traffic, it's up, it's amazing.

1252
00:52:08,030 --> 00:52:10,030
We're spiking, we're doing great, give us more

1253
00:52:10,030 --> 00:52:10,350
money.

1254
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:12,810
It happens all the time.

1255
00:52:13,770 --> 00:52:17,130
But now the creation part is what's complete.

1256
00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:20,510
And so it's, for all intents and purposes,

1257
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:21,350
it's legit.

1258
00:52:21,850 --> 00:52:23,750
You know, it's not something I'm interested in,

1259
00:52:24,110 --> 00:52:24,890
but it's legit.

1260
00:52:25,230 --> 00:52:27,190
It's no less, to me, it's like, all

1261
00:52:27,190 --> 00:52:29,070
right, so you created it with AI and

1262
00:52:29,070 --> 00:52:31,070
there's content and it may or may not

1263
00:52:31,070 --> 00:52:32,370
be interesting to me and it may or

1264
00:52:32,370 --> 00:52:34,290
may not be something, a voice that I

1265
00:52:34,290 --> 00:52:36,290
want to listen to or copy that I

1266
00:52:36,290 --> 00:52:39,470
think is useful, but it's legit creation.

1267
00:52:40,850 --> 00:52:44,470
You know, my example is always Eddie Van

1268
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:44,810
Halen.

1269
00:52:45,470 --> 00:52:50,150
Eddie Van Halen would, he really, when, what

1270
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:54,530
was the, what was their big album when

1271
00:52:54,530 --> 00:52:55,770
they still had David Lee?

1272
00:52:57,030 --> 00:53:00,630
What was the one with John and...

1273
00:53:00,630 --> 00:53:01,890
Oh, 1984.

1274
00:53:02,330 --> 00:53:03,350
84, exactly.

1275
00:53:03,350 --> 00:53:08,910
So that was kind of when studios were

1276
00:53:08,910 --> 00:53:13,610
really, really upgrading and, you know, punching in

1277
00:53:13,950 --> 00:53:19,430
and just creating these unbelievable solos that you

1278
00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:21,530
just listened to it like, wow, this guy

1279
00:53:21,530 --> 00:53:22,270
is amazing.

1280
00:53:22,590 --> 00:53:24,110
So then they went out on the road

1281
00:53:24,110 --> 00:53:26,390
and Eddie Van Halen had to learn how

1282
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:28,650
to play those licks that he had basically

1283
00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:29,990
created in the studio.

1284
00:53:30,830 --> 00:53:32,570
So this is nothing new.

1285
00:53:33,490 --> 00:53:36,390
And he really couldn't actually replicate it the

1286
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:37,730
way that it sounded on the record.

1287
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:41,570
It was almost a physical impossibility, just you

1288
00:53:41,570 --> 00:53:42,510
don't have enough fingers.

1289
00:53:44,090 --> 00:53:45,210
You know, you can't place them.

1290
00:53:45,210 --> 00:53:48,190
That's what happened to the band Alabama, the

1291
00:53:48,190 --> 00:53:51,390
fiddle player, they got studio musicians to come

1292
00:53:51,390 --> 00:53:52,390
in on...

1293
00:53:53,610 --> 00:53:54,650
Sweet Home Alabama?

1294
00:53:55,310 --> 00:53:55,890
No, no.

1295
00:53:56,190 --> 00:53:57,770
That was Lynyrd Skynyrd, I'm sorry.

1296
00:53:57,950 --> 00:53:59,050
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1297
00:53:59,430 --> 00:54:03,510
You know, the band Alabama had, I forgot

1298
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:04,150
which song it was.

1299
00:54:04,210 --> 00:54:06,330
They had one song where the studio fiddle

1300
00:54:06,330 --> 00:54:08,430
player just, I mean, he just set the

1301
00:54:08,430 --> 00:54:09,350
strings on fire.

1302
00:54:10,250 --> 00:54:13,070
And the fiddle player for Alabama was like,

1303
00:54:13,110 --> 00:54:14,470
ho, ho, ho, ho there, champ.

1304
00:54:14,830 --> 00:54:15,770
You're gonna have to calm that down.

1305
00:54:15,830 --> 00:54:16,830
There's no way I can play that.

1306
00:54:17,070 --> 00:54:18,330
He's like, I can't play that in concert.

1307
00:54:19,110 --> 00:54:20,570
So they had to like, he had to

1308
00:54:20,570 --> 00:54:22,230
tone it down so the real guy could

1309
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:22,630
play it.

1310
00:54:22,770 --> 00:54:25,590
Yeah, but my point is like, we've always

1311
00:54:25,590 --> 00:54:26,770
had fake stuff.

1312
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:28,610
You know, Milli Vanilli.

1313
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:30,590
They got a Grammy.

1314
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:32,730
They didn't even sing on the record.

1315
00:54:32,910 --> 00:54:35,070
I mean, anything can be done.

1316
00:54:36,250 --> 00:54:39,370
So if we wanna label it, no one's

1317
00:54:39,370 --> 00:54:40,210
gonna adhere to it.

1318
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:42,610
The people who are in this game, they're

1319
00:54:42,610 --> 00:54:44,570
not gonna label their content as AI.

1320
00:54:44,750 --> 00:54:45,050
They're not gonna.

1321
00:54:45,950 --> 00:54:47,130
It's not for the listener.

1322
00:54:47,270 --> 00:54:48,830
This is all about the advertiser.

1323
00:54:49,150 --> 00:54:51,190
And James kept saying it as such.

1324
00:54:51,450 --> 00:54:53,170
Well, it's up to the advertisers, what they

1325
00:54:53,170 --> 00:54:53,490
want.

1326
00:54:54,270 --> 00:54:56,370
Okay, well, so it's an advertiser problem.

1327
00:54:56,370 --> 00:54:58,770
To me, it's not a podcasting problem.

1328
00:54:59,430 --> 00:55:00,810
You know, I might actually listen to one

1329
00:55:00,810 --> 00:55:01,630
of these podcasts.

1330
00:55:01,790 --> 00:55:02,210
I don't know.

1331
00:55:02,330 --> 00:55:02,970
It could happen.

1332
00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:04,110
I'd be like, oh, that's interesting.

1333
00:55:04,450 --> 00:55:06,070
It's AI, but the content industry.

1334
00:55:06,210 --> 00:55:06,870
It could be.

1335
00:55:07,550 --> 00:55:07,850
You don't know.

1336
00:55:07,870 --> 00:55:10,010
Charlie Kirk shows say that they're hosted by

1337
00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:13,130
James Carter, a seasoned national news anchor with

1338
00:55:13,130 --> 00:55:14,750
a calm, authoritative presence.

1339
00:55:15,890 --> 00:55:17,990
It says nothing in here that is AI.

1340
00:55:18,290 --> 00:55:20,570
The description was written by AI though.

1341
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:21,850
No, but that's fine.

1342
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:24,090
You know, they're not going to say it.

1343
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:26,690
And why they shouldn't have to.

1344
00:55:27,010 --> 00:55:29,410
They use the podcast namespace in their feed.

1345
00:55:29,610 --> 00:55:29,970
So I'm happy.

1346
00:55:30,050 --> 00:55:30,830
Oh, well, good for them.

1347
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:32,270
These guys, they rock.

1348
00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:34,230
Spreaker.

1349
00:55:34,490 --> 00:55:34,890
They're awesome.

1350
00:55:35,110 --> 00:55:37,310
Spreaker gave them the air legitimacy.

1351
00:55:38,610 --> 00:55:39,130
Awesome.

1352
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:44,870
So now that would, as far as tagging,

1353
00:55:44,990 --> 00:55:48,710
I mean, I don't, I cannot think of

1354
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:50,090
a way to do it, honestly.

1355
00:55:50,350 --> 00:55:52,590
No, there's no, it's like explicit.

1356
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:54,790
Now you're either going to have to have

1357
00:55:54,790 --> 00:55:56,590
a way for people to complain and say,

1358
00:55:56,730 --> 00:55:58,390
hey, this should have an explicit tag or

1359
00:55:58,390 --> 00:55:59,650
this should have an AI tag.

1360
00:55:59,890 --> 00:56:02,370
And then the feed is no longer the

1361
00:56:02,370 --> 00:56:03,110
source of truth.

1362
00:56:04,290 --> 00:56:05,510
The minute we allow that.

1363
00:56:06,170 --> 00:56:08,310
I've been wrecking my brain trying to think

1364
00:56:08,310 --> 00:56:10,850
of a way to, that this would work.

1365
00:56:10,950 --> 00:56:12,110
And I just can't.

1366
00:56:13,070 --> 00:56:13,850
Nobody's, I mean, if.

1367
00:56:16,930 --> 00:56:18,450
But I don't really care.

1368
00:56:18,570 --> 00:56:21,630
The thing is who benefits and who's hurt.

1369
00:56:22,770 --> 00:56:27,250
This company benefits short-term and who gets

1370
00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:27,490
hurt?

1371
00:56:27,590 --> 00:56:29,130
Well, the advertisers, I'm sorry.

1372
00:56:31,070 --> 00:56:33,490
You've got a crap metric to start with.

1373
00:56:34,130 --> 00:56:34,770
Fix that.

1374
00:56:35,910 --> 00:56:36,770
How about that?

1375
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:40,190
If the core problem is not AI podcast,

1376
00:56:40,430 --> 00:56:42,270
the core problem is the download metric.

1377
00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:45,410
That's the core problem.

1378
00:56:47,710 --> 00:56:49,870
Yeah, I mean, there's just not.

1379
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:53,610
Yeah, so yeah, Nathan's right.

1380
00:56:53,610 --> 00:56:59,810
I mean, solving the advertiser problem, that's just

1381
00:56:59,810 --> 00:57:01,350
not something a tag is going to do.

1382
00:57:01,570 --> 00:57:01,670
No.

1383
00:57:01,690 --> 00:57:02,250
It's just not.

1384
00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:02,830
No.

1385
00:57:03,270 --> 00:57:03,710
It's not.

1386
00:57:04,210 --> 00:57:07,810
Unfortunately, this is one of those examples of

1387
00:57:07,810 --> 00:57:08,790
trying to use.

1388
00:57:09,570 --> 00:57:14,030
And by the way, it's only dynamically inserted

1389
00:57:14,030 --> 00:57:14,490
ads.

1390
00:57:14,790 --> 00:57:15,610
That's the problem.

1391
00:57:15,890 --> 00:57:16,790
It's not for host reads.

1392
00:57:17,150 --> 00:57:19,190
Yep, yep, because there's not going to be

1393
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:19,450
any.

1394
00:57:19,550 --> 00:57:19,710
Yeah.

1395
00:57:19,730 --> 00:57:21,070
Because nobody's going to buy that content.

1396
00:57:21,210 --> 00:57:22,150
Good, well, good.

1397
00:57:22,150 --> 00:57:24,030
Then that scourges out of my life too.

1398
00:57:25,410 --> 00:57:31,290
Well, I mean, honestly, the dynamic insertion, I

1399
00:57:31,290 --> 00:57:36,050
mean, if you're buying dynamic insertion as an

1400
00:57:36,050 --> 00:57:39,090
advertiser, you deserve what you get.

1401
00:57:39,330 --> 00:57:39,550
Yeah.

1402
00:57:39,550 --> 00:57:41,790
Because that's bottom of the barrel stuff anyway.

1403
00:57:42,010 --> 00:57:44,450
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1404
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:46,990
I mean, I don't know.

1405
00:57:47,270 --> 00:57:49,670
I just cannot, for the life of me,

1406
00:57:49,790 --> 00:57:51,350
imagine how this would work.

1407
00:57:51,350 --> 00:57:55,930
The exact people who are going, who you

1408
00:57:55,930 --> 00:57:58,250
would want to tag are the ones that

1409
00:57:58,250 --> 00:57:59,290
are not going to put the tag in

1410
00:57:59,290 --> 00:57:59,470
there.

1411
00:57:59,570 --> 00:58:00,950
So it doesn't matter.

1412
00:58:01,130 --> 00:58:01,710
Yeah, exactly.

1413
00:58:02,270 --> 00:58:05,690
So this does flow into censorship because, and

1414
00:58:05,690 --> 00:58:09,210
classic government censorship is one thing, but at

1415
00:58:09,210 --> 00:58:12,250
a certain point, Adam and Dave are going

1416
00:58:12,250 --> 00:58:15,530
to say, well, this is hurting our system,

1417
00:58:15,870 --> 00:58:18,170
this flood of a trillion books, we're going

1418
00:58:18,170 --> 00:58:20,890
to have to censor this, which is a

1419
00:58:20,890 --> 00:58:21,690
form of censorship.

1420
00:58:21,690 --> 00:58:23,450
Like, no, you can't be in our index.

1421
00:58:23,850 --> 00:58:25,990
And that would be the only reason that

1422
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:28,050
I would pull that trigger is because it

1423
00:58:28,050 --> 00:58:31,230
is essentially out of platform self-defense.

1424
00:58:32,510 --> 00:58:34,190
Yes, platform self-defense.

1425
00:58:35,150 --> 00:58:37,730
I mean, there's no other, because, I mean,

1426
00:58:37,810 --> 00:58:41,130
what is being said, I mean, we've said

1427
00:58:41,130 --> 00:58:43,870
this since the very beginning, we're just not

1428
00:58:43,870 --> 00:58:44,910
going to get involved in that.

1429
00:58:44,970 --> 00:58:45,950
That's up to the apps.

1430
00:58:46,030 --> 00:58:47,790
The apps can layer on top of us

1431
00:58:47,790 --> 00:58:49,470
and decide to show whatever they want.

1432
00:58:49,570 --> 00:58:52,150
We're not going to be pulling stuff off

1433
00:58:52,150 --> 00:58:53,110
based on content.

1434
00:58:53,230 --> 00:58:53,570
Exactly.

1435
00:58:54,630 --> 00:58:58,350
But, you know, unless it's locally illegal to

1436
00:58:58,350 --> 00:58:58,690
us.

1437
00:58:59,710 --> 00:59:00,910
Now, I'm sorry.

1438
00:59:01,290 --> 00:59:01,570
Go ahead.

1439
00:59:01,730 --> 00:59:04,350
No, but if we have to play self

1440
00:59:04,350 --> 00:59:06,930
-defense because we're getting overwhelmed with a certain

1441
00:59:06,930 --> 00:59:10,630
type of garbage content, like AI generation or

1442
00:59:10,630 --> 00:59:14,970
Vietnamese poker SEO, I mean, yeah, we're going

1443
00:59:14,970 --> 00:59:15,630
to pull those off.

1444
00:59:15,830 --> 00:59:16,790
Those are fun.

1445
00:59:17,790 --> 00:59:19,310
Give me access to API.

1446
00:59:19,570 --> 00:59:21,050
I need right access to API.

1447
00:59:22,010 --> 00:59:22,710
Urgent, urgent.

1448
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:23,590
Urgent, urgent.

1449
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:25,490
Dave, Dave, Dave, I need access.

1450
00:59:27,110 --> 00:59:28,630
It's amazing they got your name.

1451
00:59:30,030 --> 00:59:32,530
I mean, they were hounding us for a

1452
00:59:32,530 --> 00:59:33,030
couple of weeks.

1453
00:59:33,170 --> 00:59:33,510
Dave, Dave.

1454
00:59:33,510 --> 00:59:34,530
I think they finally gave up.

1455
00:59:34,730 --> 00:59:37,330
Give me right access API is very important

1456
00:59:37,330 --> 00:59:38,790
for our podcast platform.

1457
00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:40,330
Why did you not respond?

1458
00:59:41,910 --> 00:59:43,750
You actually did respond once.

1459
00:59:44,010 --> 00:59:45,190
We take care of spam.

1460
00:59:45,310 --> 00:59:45,750
It's good.

1461
00:59:45,970 --> 00:59:46,350
Look now.

1462
00:59:46,350 --> 00:59:48,870
Yeah, yeah, we, yeah, shaking now we got

1463
00:59:48,870 --> 00:59:49,410
rid of it all.

1464
00:59:49,630 --> 00:59:49,750
Okay.

1465
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:53,590
Oh man.

1466
00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:57,730
Well, so just because there's so much, I

1467
00:59:57,730 --> 00:59:58,650
think we talked about it on the last

1468
00:59:58,650 --> 00:59:58,810
show.

1469
00:59:58,890 --> 01:00:01,090
There's so much confusion about the FCC.

1470
01:00:01,470 --> 01:00:05,690
And to be fair, in other countries, there

1471
01:00:05,690 --> 01:00:07,790
are organizations who police content.

1472
01:00:07,910 --> 01:00:10,650
And this is certainly happening in the EU

1473
01:00:10,650 --> 01:00:12,430
and certainly happening in the UK.

1474
01:00:13,990 --> 01:00:17,430
And I don't believe they have any jurisdiction

1475
01:00:17,430 --> 01:00:18,930
over podcast index.

1476
01:00:19,050 --> 01:00:20,870
They could certainly block us, I guess, on

1477
01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:21,790
a network level.

1478
01:00:22,290 --> 01:00:22,990
That'd be cool.

1479
01:00:23,570 --> 01:00:24,690
It would be something different.

1480
01:00:25,610 --> 01:00:26,130
Be fine.

1481
01:00:26,230 --> 01:00:26,790
Yeah, it'd be fine.

1482
01:00:27,150 --> 01:00:29,590
So that's certainly something they can do.

1483
01:00:29,670 --> 01:00:31,330
In the United States, it really comes down

1484
01:00:31,330 --> 01:00:32,890
to one thing and that's liability.

1485
01:00:33,590 --> 01:00:35,070
And the reason we can do this at

1486
01:00:35,070 --> 01:00:36,870
all is because of section 230.

1487
01:00:37,730 --> 01:00:38,150
Yeah.

1488
01:00:38,630 --> 01:00:41,850
And of the Communications Decency Act, I think

1489
01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:42,210
it is.

1490
01:00:43,470 --> 01:00:47,090
And that says that we can have content

1491
01:00:47,090 --> 01:00:49,470
that is created by other people.

1492
01:00:50,110 --> 01:00:55,270
And if there's something, if there's some form

1493
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:56,930
of, what's the term I'm looking for?

1494
01:00:57,990 --> 01:01:01,090
Slander or the other term, you have slander,

1495
01:01:01,330 --> 01:01:02,830
you have- Libel.

1496
01:01:04,230 --> 01:01:08,050
Well, in essence, if someone says, I'm going

1497
01:01:08,050 --> 01:01:11,030
to kill this person and it's in a

1498
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:14,150
podcast or in a description somewhere, we are

1499
01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:15,390
not liable for that.

1500
01:01:16,610 --> 01:01:19,370
And if they change section 230, which I

1501
01:01:19,370 --> 01:01:21,490
highly doubt they will because that would kill

1502
01:01:21,490 --> 01:01:22,590
everybody.

1503
01:01:22,850 --> 01:01:23,650
That would kill Facebook.

1504
01:01:23,930 --> 01:01:28,230
That would kill X, everything.

1505
01:01:28,350 --> 01:01:32,070
Every social media site, even Google could run

1506
01:01:32,070 --> 01:01:32,850
into trouble then.

1507
01:01:33,270 --> 01:01:34,950
So I doubt they're gonna get rid of

1508
01:01:34,950 --> 01:01:35,230
that.

1509
01:01:35,230 --> 01:01:39,970
But there's no organization, no governmental agency in

1510
01:01:39,970 --> 01:01:41,690
the United States that can stop us from

1511
01:01:41,690 --> 01:01:45,350
doing anything we want to do, except for

1512
01:01:45,350 --> 01:01:45,950
the courts.

1513
01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:49,730
And if that happened, if they changed section

1514
01:01:49,730 --> 01:01:51,530
230, well, that could be difficult.

1515
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,900
Then we're just back to bloated apps with

1516
01:01:56,900 --> 01:01:58,460
the whole index on it.

1517
01:01:59,180 --> 01:02:00,640
I don't know what else we can do

1518
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:01,240
in that case.

1519
01:02:02,100 --> 01:02:03,760
SQLite download or whatever, yeah.

1520
01:02:04,780 --> 01:02:06,180
Yeah, you just pull in the whole thing.

1521
01:02:06,180 --> 01:02:10,560
Yeah, I don't, I mean, there's no, yeah,

1522
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:15,280
we're not gonna, I think some, maybe in

1523
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,440
the beginning of when we started the index,

1524
01:02:17,700 --> 01:02:23,280
it got a little confused that what we

1525
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,540
were saying was- Right wing nut jobs.

1526
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:31,360
Yeah, like Alex Jones and stuff like that,

1527
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,860
which is just like, that's not the case.

1528
01:02:34,860 --> 01:02:39,400
I mean, there's no, it does not matter.

1529
01:02:39,940 --> 01:02:43,100
That was just who happened to be the

1530
01:02:43,100 --> 01:02:44,760
target for censorship at that time.

1531
01:02:45,420 --> 01:02:51,140
But the targets for censorship change constantly.

1532
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:53,480
That's always been the case.

1533
01:02:54,500 --> 01:03:00,740
And your particular political quote enemy today maybe

1534
01:03:00,740 --> 01:03:03,800
is- Could be you tomorrow.

1535
01:03:04,220 --> 01:03:05,460
Yeah, it could be you tomorrow.

1536
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,560
So the thing is just complete, we're just

1537
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:11,140
completely neutral hands off.

1538
01:03:11,220 --> 01:03:12,540
And that's the only way you can make

1539
01:03:12,540 --> 01:03:13,560
anything like that work.

1540
01:03:14,660 --> 01:03:16,180
It's just the only, it's the only way

1541
01:03:16,180 --> 01:03:17,200
you maintain credibility.

1542
01:03:17,420 --> 01:03:20,140
But for sure, Spotify and Apple and others,

1543
01:03:20,140 --> 01:03:21,720
I think they take stuff off all the

1544
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:22,040
time.

1545
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:24,160
We know this, we know this from the

1546
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:24,920
hosting companies.

1547
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:26,840
I used to get a lot more in

1548
01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:29,320
from Todd, but he died, that sucks.

1549
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:30,760
Like Todd would give you all the dirt.

1550
01:03:31,540 --> 01:03:33,580
Todd, that was, I miss you, Todd.

1551
01:03:33,580 --> 01:03:34,180
That was cool.

1552
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:36,100
Oh, no hacker.

1553
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,260
There is no username Celine on my server.

1554
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:40,960
Stop it.

1555
01:03:41,140 --> 01:03:41,240
Celine?

1556
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:41,620
Yes.

1557
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:44,940
They're just rolling through the whole index.

1558
01:03:45,220 --> 01:03:47,560
I saw Nancy, I saw Celine, I saw

1559
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:47,900
emo.

1560
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:48,580
Nancy?

1561
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:49,480
Nancy.

1562
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:52,180
No username Nancy.

1563
01:03:53,060 --> 01:03:54,960
No, no Nancy here.

1564
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:56,620
Yes, there's no Nancy here.

1565
01:03:57,660 --> 01:04:00,640
That like, you should name all your SSH

1566
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:01,300
users Nancy.

1567
01:04:02,140 --> 01:04:02,360
Yeah.

1568
01:04:03,780 --> 01:04:04,920
Hi, I'm Nancy.

1569
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:06,160
Hi, I'm Nancy.

1570
01:04:06,320 --> 01:04:06,940
How you doing?

1571
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,260
Isn't that an old timey term to call

1572
01:04:11,260 --> 01:04:12,980
somebody like a wuss?

1573
01:04:13,060 --> 01:04:13,980
Yeah, you're Nancy.

1574
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:15,180
Yeah, oh, absolutely.

1575
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:16,500
That's right.

1576
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:17,340
You Nancy.

1577
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:19,860
There's no Nancy on this server, go away.

1578
01:04:21,300 --> 01:04:22,000
That's funny.

1579
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:26,120
Go ahead.

1580
01:04:26,460 --> 01:04:28,120
I was going to move on to something

1581
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:28,420
else.

1582
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:29,100
Yeah, sure.

1583
01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:33,160
Did you see the X402 foundation on Coinbase?

1584
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,840
The X402 transactions?

1585
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:39,240
Yeah, well, there's been a lot of movement

1586
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:40,500
on the 402 thing.

1587
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:41,920
It's very interesting.

1588
01:04:42,580 --> 01:04:46,200
Because I think Cloudflare is doing something as

1589
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:46,360
well.

1590
01:04:46,620 --> 01:04:47,120
Yes, yes.

1591
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:53,560
Cloudflare is partnering with Coinbase to create the

1592
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:54,920
X402 foundation.

1593
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,080
The foundation's mission will be to encourage the

1594
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,780
adoption of the X402 protocol an updated framework

1595
01:04:59,780 --> 01:05:03,420
that allows clients and services to exchange value

1596
01:05:03,420 --> 01:05:06,440
on the web, there's my favorite word, using

1597
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:07,500
a common language.

1598
01:05:07,500 --> 01:05:09,620
In addition to today's partnership, we are shipping

1599
01:05:09,620 --> 01:05:11,980
a set of features, blah, blah, blah, SDK,

1600
01:05:12,420 --> 01:05:13,300
et cetera, et cetera.

1601
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,000
And the way I see this, this is

1602
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:17,180
your programmable money.

1603
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,260
This is what we were trying to do

1604
01:05:21,260 --> 01:05:24,760
and succeeded with the Lightning Network and with

1605
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:25,220
Bitcoin.

1606
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:27,920
And I think that they've probably got a

1607
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:33,440
very, very decent idea here with 402 payment

1608
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:34,540
required response.

1609
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,620
And what you're talking about, and I'm gonna

1610
01:05:37,620 --> 01:05:39,140
have to rely on you for this because

1611
01:05:39,140 --> 01:05:40,160
I have not researched it.

1612
01:05:40,180 --> 01:05:42,100
So you're talking about the Coinbase thing right

1613
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:42,320
now?

1614
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:44,560
Well, it's a foundation.

1615
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,220
So it's Coinbase and Cloudflare, they're both in

1616
01:05:47,220 --> 01:05:47,480
it.

1617
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,040
And the idea here is to fully bring

1618
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,180
402 out of the like- The dungeon.

1619
01:05:54,700 --> 01:06:00,520
The dungeon, the Bitcoin dungeon and make it

1620
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:01,720
where it's multi-currency.

1621
01:06:02,620 --> 01:06:06,200
Well, what they're using it for is pay

1622
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:07,040
-per-crawl.

1623
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,740
You see the Cloudflare guy, who seems like

1624
01:06:11,740 --> 01:06:12,980
a pretty decent guy, actually.

1625
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:14,100
I read a long interview with him.

1626
01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:15,300
Yeah, I think so too, yeah, yeah.

1627
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,820
He said, look, everybody, all the AI companies

1628
01:06:18,820 --> 01:06:21,100
are just crawling all of your crap all

1629
01:06:21,100 --> 01:06:21,740
day long.

1630
01:06:22,140 --> 01:06:27,380
Put your stuff behind our Cloudflare wall, wall

1631
01:06:27,380 --> 01:06:32,680
of protection, and you can allow bots to

1632
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:34,620
crawl your website, but they have to pay

1633
01:06:34,620 --> 01:06:35,000
for it.

1634
01:06:35,020 --> 01:06:37,480
And it's an automatic process through this X402

1635
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:37,960
protocol.

1636
01:06:38,780 --> 01:06:40,720
They call it pay-per-crawl.

1637
01:06:41,180 --> 01:06:43,360
Which, I mean, think about that with the

1638
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:43,820
index.

1639
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,080
We should set it up regardless.

1640
01:06:46,260 --> 01:06:47,800
You never know, we could make some bank

1641
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:48,280
on that.

1642
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:49,360
Pay-per-crawl, everybody.

1643
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,700
Man, bot fighting is like a freaking full

1644
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:53,300
-time job.

1645
01:06:53,640 --> 01:06:55,340
So, interesting thought.

1646
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,860
But it can easily be turned around and

1647
01:06:59,860 --> 01:07:03,520
used for good in a positive manner by

1648
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,680
incorporating it into value-for-value transactions between

1649
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,340
podcast apps and podcasters.

1650
01:07:10,580 --> 01:07:12,340
The way I see it, I don't see

1651
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:14,680
any way it wouldn't work or any downside

1652
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:15,240
to it.

1653
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:20,920
The upside is probably because it's unavoidable that,

1654
01:07:20,980 --> 01:07:22,980
and I've said this before, that Stablecoin is

1655
01:07:22,980 --> 01:07:24,800
going to be in our lives all the

1656
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:25,620
time, everywhere.

1657
01:07:27,300 --> 01:07:29,800
It's a fact, it's just coming.

1658
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:34,000
Then it may not call it Stablecoin, just

1659
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:35,580
be, here's a dollar, you know?

1660
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:36,340
How much?

1661
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:37,640
Oh, you owe me 10 bucks.

1662
01:07:37,740 --> 01:07:38,660
Okay, here's 10 bucks.

1663
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:40,220
Oh, you want to boost me three cents?

1664
01:07:40,300 --> 01:07:41,080
Here's three cents.

1665
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:45,140
And I think it'll be fee-less, probably.

1666
01:07:48,140 --> 01:07:56,020
So, the idea here is that perhaps we

1667
01:07:56,020 --> 01:08:00,640
could change, I'm trying to think this through.

1668
01:08:03,050 --> 01:08:11,440
We could perhaps modify the value tag to

1669
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:15,720
use the 402 for payment.

1670
01:08:16,380 --> 01:08:17,800
Yeah, but I don't even think you have

1671
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:18,760
to modify it much.

1672
01:08:18,779 --> 01:08:20,580
You just have to add, here's another option.

1673
01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:22,600
Right.

1674
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:24,899
I mean, they got code and everything.

1675
01:08:25,859 --> 01:08:27,460
They got code, man, sample code.

1676
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:29,380
Let's run it.

1677
01:08:29,859 --> 01:08:30,779
Let's run it, Nancy.

1678
01:08:30,779 --> 01:08:32,240
Yeah, right, just download that thing and run

1679
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:32,399
it.

1680
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:33,319
Let's run it, Nancy.

1681
01:08:35,979 --> 01:08:37,439
SSH Nancy run code.

1682
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:41,560
I think, this is, yeah, this is interesting

1683
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,700
because I never really thought about, and when

1684
01:08:43,700 --> 01:08:45,720
I've thought about 402, I always thought about

1685
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:48,220
it in terms of like what Sam is

1686
01:08:48,220 --> 01:08:52,899
calling secure and Sam and Russell call secure

1687
01:08:52,899 --> 01:08:53,439
RSS.

1688
01:08:55,250 --> 01:08:59,100
You know, and that's clearly working on TrueFans

1689
01:08:59,100 --> 01:09:04,779
and Fountain and Pod2 and, but using it

1690
01:09:04,779 --> 01:09:11,620
for, if we had a common API, okay,

1691
01:09:12,000 --> 01:09:13,939
all right, well, how would this be?

1692
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:20,939
Suppose there's a common API defined and let's

1693
01:09:20,939 --> 01:09:24,279
say it could be a continuation or a

1694
01:09:24,279 --> 01:09:27,899
fleshing out of Alex's MetaBoost API spec.

1695
01:09:28,279 --> 01:09:28,399
Yeah.

1696
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:32,859
So you have that as the interface and

1697
01:09:32,859 --> 01:09:37,779
then a hosting company or publisher would publish

1698
01:09:37,779 --> 01:09:47,120
the callback to that in a value tag.

1699
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:50,500
Let me give you the examples, the examples

1700
01:09:50,500 --> 01:09:51,740
they list, okay?

1701
01:09:52,359 --> 01:09:54,120
Which is, and someone's going to do this.

1702
01:09:54,580 --> 01:09:56,600
Someone is going to do this, whether it's

1703
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,360
us or not, I guarantee you.

1704
01:09:58,980 --> 01:10:01,400
So the examples they give, they say X402

1705
01:10:01,400 --> 01:10:03,620
can be used to monetize traditional use cases,

1706
01:10:03,700 --> 01:10:05,900
but also enables monetization of a new class

1707
01:10:05,900 --> 01:10:06,560
of use cases.

1708
01:10:06,620 --> 01:10:09,060
For example, an assistant that is able to

1709
01:10:09,060 --> 01:10:11,840
purchase accessories for your Halloween costume from multiple

1710
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:12,240
merchants.

1711
01:10:12,380 --> 01:10:13,740
So that's like an AI agent.

1712
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:14,680
Okay, fine, whatever.

1713
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:18,080
Then they have an AI agent, which could

1714
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,900
also just be a person on a web

1715
01:10:19,900 --> 01:10:23,480
browser, pays per browser rendering session instead of

1716
01:10:23,480 --> 01:10:25,320
committing to a monthly subscription fee.

1717
01:10:26,020 --> 01:10:29,560
And the third example, an autonomous stock trader

1718
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:32,440
that makes micropayments for a high quality real

1719
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:34,440
-time data feed to drive decisions.

1720
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:38,800
So in my mind, it's like you can

1721
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,900
listen to this podcast for free, but if

1722
01:10:41,900 --> 01:10:46,420
you enable your X402, then you will automatically

1723
01:10:46,420 --> 01:10:47,920
make micro, and I don't know if they

1724
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:49,860
have like an open-ended payment or if

1725
01:10:49,860 --> 01:10:52,920
it's like an invoice that has a number

1726
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,320
on it, but you can then decide to

1727
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,820
make payments in real-time micropayments for the

1728
01:10:58,820 --> 01:11:01,540
high quality real-time data fee of MP3

1729
01:11:01,540 --> 01:11:02,960
information that comes back.

1730
01:11:03,220 --> 01:11:04,160
It's the same thing.

1731
01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:07,180
They're just thinking of in commerce and I'm

1732
01:11:07,180 --> 01:11:08,420
thinking value for value.

1733
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,100
So, you know, it would say payment, let

1734
01:11:15,100 --> 01:11:16,760
me see, payment required.

1735
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:18,000
Okay, we know that.

1736
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:19,740
I just don't know if it can be

1737
01:11:19,740 --> 01:11:20,340
open-ended.

1738
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:23,820
Chad F., does it do keysyn?

1739
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:28,320
Well, that is, it's funny, but that's actually

1740
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:31,200
the question, is does it do bolt 12?

1741
01:11:31,460 --> 01:11:33,940
You know, does it, can you have an

1742
01:11:33,940 --> 01:11:36,900
open-ended payment requirement or does it have

1743
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:38,460
to be a specific number?

1744
01:11:38,780 --> 01:11:39,600
This, I don't know.

1745
01:11:40,220 --> 01:11:46,120
Well, it's just, if you're, if you ping

1746
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:55,760
the, if we're doing X402 or

1747
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,040
L402, I don't know why they could call

1748
01:11:59,040 --> 01:11:59,520
it X.

1749
01:11:59,580 --> 01:12:01,040
I don't know what that's all about, but

1750
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:06,080
if there's a 402 endpoint that you're hitting,

1751
01:12:07,140 --> 01:12:09,300
then you're gonna get some, you know, you're

1752
01:12:09,300 --> 01:12:12,020
gonna get some sort of token and then

1753
01:12:12,020 --> 01:12:14,860
you could use that to make your payment.

1754
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:17,800
And then I'm just thinking that the API

1755
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:22,600
that it's gonna call can hold all of

1756
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:28,440
the, because we're gonna have, you know, what

1757
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:32,680
we need is an API that is like

1758
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:36,820
the abstraction layer between whatever the currency is

1759
01:12:36,820 --> 01:12:41,900
gonna be and whatever, and what the payer

1760
01:12:41,900 --> 01:12:43,680
is sending.

1761
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:48,880
Because it could be anything on either side

1762
01:12:49,440 --> 01:12:51,280
and it's just gonna get, you know, it

1763
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:52,160
would just get translated.

1764
01:12:54,060 --> 01:12:55,820
I don't, this is interesting.

1765
01:12:55,860 --> 01:12:57,320
I'm gonna have to think about this.

1766
01:13:00,100 --> 01:13:04,860
Because I can see how this would solve,

1767
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:15,380
Bolt12 is just a different form of LNURLP.

1768
01:13:16,590 --> 01:13:18,020
It's the same thing.

1769
01:13:18,900 --> 01:13:23,400
Really, Bolt12 is just LNURLP, but it's been

1770
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,840
pulled completely into the Lightning protocol.

1771
01:13:27,860 --> 01:13:28,980
Here, you have an answer.

1772
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:33,400
X402 supports variable payment amounts, which can be

1773
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,700
adapted for open-ended donations where users specify

1774
01:13:36,700 --> 01:13:37,720
different values.

1775
01:13:37,900 --> 01:13:40,640
The protocol uses HTTP 402 responses to find

1776
01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:44,120
payment details, including the exact amount in stable

1777
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:47,700
coins like USDC and allowing flexibility per request,

1778
01:13:48,340 --> 01:13:50,400
such as basing the amount on user input

1779
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:52,600
or parameters in a donation flow.

1780
01:13:53,060 --> 01:13:57,080
While it's primarily designed for automated micropayments, AI

1781
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:00,420
agents, it can handle custom amounts for purposes

1782
01:14:00,420 --> 01:14:03,440
like donations through appropriate client-server implementations.

1783
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:05,760
So there'd have to be a back and

1784
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:06,060
forth.

1785
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:08,900
Like, hey, I wanna send you three cents

1786
01:14:08,900 --> 01:14:09,280
a minute.

1787
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,560
Okay, I'm gonna give you a three cents

1788
01:14:11,560 --> 01:14:13,700
a minute token.

1789
01:14:15,100 --> 01:14:16,080
Something like that.

1790
01:14:16,600 --> 01:14:19,040
Right, Nathan says 402 is just the HTTP

1791
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:19,500
response.

1792
01:14:19,620 --> 01:14:21,700
I don't believe the version of Cloudflare Coinbase

1793
01:14:21,700 --> 01:14:23,000
will support Lightning Network.

1794
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:24,480
No, I understand that, Nathan.

1795
01:14:25,540 --> 01:14:26,580
I understand that.

1796
01:14:26,680 --> 01:14:28,860
What I'm trying, what I'm thinking, I'm not

1797
01:14:28,860 --> 01:14:30,460
being clear because I'm trying to think this

1798
01:14:30,460 --> 01:14:31,200
through in real time.

1799
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:37,780
What I'm saying is that if the value

1800
01:14:37,780 --> 01:14:40,800
tag is changed to support instead of raw

1801
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:46,360
Lightning, if it's changed to support 402 in

1802
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,720
whatever flavor that is, whether, you know, this

1803
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,020
thing X402 or- Then you need an

1804
01:14:52,020 --> 01:14:54,520
API to do some back and forth, is

1805
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:54,940
what you're saying.

1806
01:14:54,940 --> 01:14:57,380
Right, right, because right now the API is,

1807
01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:00,220
when you're talking about a Lightning value tag,

1808
01:15:00,220 --> 01:15:02,540
the API that you're communicating with is already

1809
01:15:02,540 --> 01:15:03,080
defined.

1810
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:03,600
Right.

1811
01:15:03,880 --> 01:15:07,260
It's defined by the RPC, excuse me, by

1812
01:15:07,260 --> 01:15:10,400
the either, you know, REST or RPC or

1813
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,760
Keysend or Bolt11, all those things, all those

1814
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:15,780
layers of that stack are already there and

1815
01:15:15,780 --> 01:15:16,740
we know what they are.

1816
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:18,800
So that's why when you define the method

1817
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:23,500
equals Lightning, that you know how to interface

1818
01:15:23,500 --> 01:15:23,880
with that.

1819
01:15:23,980 --> 01:15:26,780
So if we change the available value tag

1820
01:15:26,780 --> 01:15:31,660
method to be something like X402, then the

1821
01:15:31,660 --> 01:15:33,620
question is, what does the API look like

1822
01:15:33,620 --> 01:15:34,740
on the other side of it?

1823
01:15:35,660 --> 01:15:39,300
And we know that X402 is going to

1824
01:15:39,300 --> 01:15:40,040
be defined.

1825
01:15:40,690 --> 01:15:41,000
Yeah.

1826
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:41,760
That's clear.

1827
01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:46,620
They're going to define that, but it's going

1828
01:15:46,620 --> 01:15:49,220
to be, everybody can implement it.

1829
01:15:49,660 --> 01:15:53,860
And so each person's implementation can have its

1830
01:15:53,860 --> 01:15:55,160
own flavor.

1831
01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:00,880
And so what I'm thinking is that if

1832
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:02,900
we have an X, if we have a

1833
01:16:02,900 --> 01:16:11,220
flavor of X402 that is tuned to podcasting's

1834
01:16:11,220 --> 01:16:14,600
need, it can be backwards, it can be

1835
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,480
compatible with X402 in the general sense, but

1836
01:16:17,480 --> 01:16:20,440
that it can also have baked into it

1837
01:16:21,100 --> 01:16:23,460
the metadata stuff that we need so that

1838
01:16:23,460 --> 01:16:24,660
that is an exchangeable.

1839
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:25,560
Right.

1840
01:16:25,660 --> 01:16:28,820
Because I'm imagining that X402 itself is not

1841
01:16:28,820 --> 01:16:30,160
- There's no metadata.

1842
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:30,600
I don't know this.

1843
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:31,900
No, there's no metadata.

1844
01:16:32,180 --> 01:16:32,400
Nothing.

1845
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:34,480
Or just something generic.

1846
01:16:34,680 --> 01:16:34,940
Right.

1847
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:38,400
Something generic, just like, who knows what that

1848
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:38,560
is?

1849
01:16:38,580 --> 01:16:40,200
I haven't looked at the spec yet, but

1850
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:42,700
if it's just something generic, we may be

1851
01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:46,260
able to take and shoehorn in the metadata

1852
01:16:46,260 --> 01:16:48,220
spec that we need it to be.

1853
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,460
So yeah, I know I'm referencing Lightning, but

1854
01:16:52,460 --> 01:16:53,720
I know they're two separate things, but I

1855
01:16:53,720 --> 01:17:00,360
think this, we could make this, we could

1856
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:02,800
make this work, I think.

1857
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:03,760
I think so too.

1858
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:07,960
Okay.

1859
01:17:09,660 --> 01:17:11,940
Gonna have to, gonna have to think about,

1860
01:17:12,060 --> 01:17:13,800
I wonder, I mean, does anybody have example

1861
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:14,540
servers up yet?

1862
01:17:14,580 --> 01:17:15,280
Maybe Cloudflare?

1863
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,020
Yeah, I have a, they got all kinds

1864
01:17:19,020 --> 01:17:21,020
of stuff on Cloudflare, hold on.

1865
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:21,760
Okay.

1866
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:22,580
I'll give it to you.

1867
01:17:23,380 --> 01:17:26,680
Because, you know, Alex started writing that MetaBoost

1868
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:33,740
spec, MetaBoost API, I mean, we could, we

1869
01:17:33,740 --> 01:17:38,160
could just modify 402 to accept the thing

1870
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:38,980
we need it to be.

1871
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:42,440
That's what I would kind of hope for

1872
01:17:42,440 --> 01:17:43,100
in this.

1873
01:17:46,110 --> 01:17:49,130
And they're taking contributions to the protocol.

1874
01:17:50,110 --> 01:17:51,890
So get your code in now.

1875
01:17:52,110 --> 01:17:52,290
Yeah.

1876
01:17:52,290 --> 01:17:53,730
Well, they got a, they got a GitHub.

1877
01:17:54,950 --> 01:17:56,450
I wonder where that is, let me.

1878
01:17:56,690 --> 01:17:58,050
Yeah, it's in that link I just sent

1879
01:17:58,050 --> 01:17:58,270
you.

1880
01:17:59,170 --> 01:18:00,950
The Coinbase X402 thing?

1881
01:18:01,510 --> 01:18:01,810
Yeah.

1882
01:18:02,510 --> 01:18:03,790
Vue docs, I wonder if that's- Hey,

1883
01:18:03,850 --> 01:18:04,670
they have a free app.

1884
01:18:05,070 --> 01:18:06,150
They have a free app.

1885
01:18:06,510 --> 01:18:07,610
A free app?

1886
01:18:07,630 --> 01:18:08,570
Yes, a free app.

1887
01:18:08,650 --> 01:18:10,430
The free app that makes your internet safer,

1888
01:18:10,570 --> 01:18:12,270
now available for even more devices.

1889
01:18:12,530 --> 01:18:13,490
What does this app do?

1890
01:18:13,510 --> 01:18:13,950
Okay.

1891
01:18:14,490 --> 01:18:15,350
It's Warp.

1892
01:18:16,330 --> 01:18:17,290
It's the Warp.

1893
01:18:19,810 --> 01:18:22,470
GitHub Coinbase X402, here we go, okay.

1894
01:18:22,650 --> 01:18:28,510
So it's GitHub.com slash Coinbase slash X402.

1895
01:18:28,850 --> 01:18:29,250
There you go.

1896
01:18:31,530 --> 01:18:35,470
And yeah, it looks like CloudFlare's, yeah, CloudFlare

1897
01:18:35,470 --> 01:18:37,610
agent docs, they're also the X402.

1898
01:18:37,930 --> 01:18:39,350
So we need to figure out where all

1899
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:40,770
this stuff crosses over.

1900
01:18:42,510 --> 01:18:44,830
One line of code to accept digital dollars,

1901
01:18:44,910 --> 01:18:48,910
no fee, two second settlement, 0.001 cent

1902
01:18:48,910 --> 01:18:50,210
minimum payment.

1903
01:18:51,270 --> 01:18:52,070
That's cool.

1904
01:18:54,090 --> 01:18:56,330
Open standard, the phone will never force reliance.

1905
01:18:56,530 --> 01:18:58,270
Yeah, okay, we just need to read through

1906
01:18:58,270 --> 01:18:58,610
this.

1907
01:19:00,350 --> 01:19:01,890
I'm glad you brought this up because I

1908
01:19:01,890 --> 01:19:04,210
had seen it multiple times this week and

1909
01:19:04,210 --> 01:19:05,410
just had not gotten into it.

1910
01:19:05,850 --> 01:19:08,210
Yeah, it's, you know, you know me.

1911
01:19:08,930 --> 01:19:10,130
I'm like, this is beautiful.

1912
01:19:11,410 --> 01:19:15,510
It's got a payment sequencing, the OCV1 protocol

1913
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:17,390
sequencing, it's like payment method.

1914
01:19:17,390 --> 01:19:21,870
Yeah, the question I have is just, where

1915
01:19:21,870 --> 01:19:24,730
is the, do they have anything like a

1916
01:19:24,730 --> 01:19:25,330
sandbox?

1917
01:19:26,210 --> 01:19:27,310
That I don't know.

1918
01:19:27,410 --> 01:19:29,210
Up and running that you can hit and

1919
01:19:29,210 --> 01:19:30,170
see what it does.

1920
01:19:30,170 --> 01:19:31,170
Yeah, I haven't looked at it yet.

1921
01:19:32,050 --> 01:19:33,170
Not that deep.

1922
01:19:34,550 --> 01:19:36,870
I've been fighting hackers who are now at

1923
01:19:36,870 --> 01:19:37,910
N for Nokia.

1924
01:19:38,730 --> 01:19:40,250
Oh, they're just going through the alphabet.

1925
01:19:42,210 --> 01:19:44,250
Went from Nancy to Nokia, took them a

1926
01:19:44,250 --> 01:19:44,810
half an hour.

1927
01:19:45,050 --> 01:19:47,070
Oh boy, you guys, I'm telling you.

1928
01:19:47,230 --> 01:19:47,370
Yeah, I'm telling you.

1929
01:19:47,370 --> 01:19:48,610
You're going to be there all day.

1930
01:19:48,670 --> 01:19:49,510
I hope they packed a lunch.

1931
01:19:49,710 --> 01:19:50,190
It's kind of fun.

1932
01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:51,450
It's kind of fun to know that someone

1933
01:19:51,450 --> 01:19:53,670
is desperately trying to do this.

1934
01:19:55,330 --> 01:19:57,930
All these things are probably coming from like

1935
01:19:57,930 --> 01:20:02,690
some hacked home router in Brazil, you know?

1936
01:20:02,730 --> 01:20:04,250
Oh, it's actually, no, some of it's coming

1937
01:20:04,250 --> 01:20:04,990
from Linode.

1938
01:20:07,010 --> 01:20:07,730
Interestingly enough.

1939
01:20:08,230 --> 01:20:10,410
So they're, you know, using a Linode to

1940
01:20:10,410 --> 01:20:11,210
hack a Linode.

1941
01:20:12,310 --> 01:20:12,770
And- Oh, really?

1942
01:20:13,510 --> 01:20:14,310
Some of it, yeah.

1943
01:20:14,710 --> 01:20:15,290
A lot of people.

1944
01:20:15,550 --> 01:20:16,510
Yeah, what is this one?

1945
01:20:17,970 --> 01:20:20,950
Hostingmail, servermail.org is another fine one.

1946
01:20:21,090 --> 01:20:23,210
Oh, it's giving you reverse name.

1947
01:20:23,210 --> 01:20:24,730
I've got trace routing some of them.

1948
01:20:24,830 --> 01:20:25,490
Oh, you're tracing, okay.

1949
01:20:26,410 --> 01:20:28,810
Yeah, so they've hacked in all kinds of

1950
01:20:28,810 --> 01:20:29,110
stuff.

1951
01:20:29,250 --> 01:20:30,610
Like, oh, I got someone's mail server.

1952
01:20:30,770 --> 01:20:31,710
Cool, we'll use this.

1953
01:20:33,490 --> 01:20:34,830
Great, great, yeah.

1954
01:20:35,070 --> 01:20:35,690
And you know what?

1955
01:20:35,690 --> 01:20:37,210
There's a lot of hacked servers out there,

1956
01:20:37,270 --> 01:20:37,870
that's for sure.

1957
01:20:38,410 --> 01:20:39,150
Oh yeah, I bet.

1958
01:20:39,510 --> 01:20:40,430
It's unbelievable.

1959
01:20:41,610 --> 01:20:43,650
Let's see, where is this one coming from?

1960
01:20:45,210 --> 01:20:46,130
Oh, interesting.

1961
01:20:48,370 --> 01:20:50,910
Dude, I think, what's this from?

1962
01:20:51,130 --> 01:20:54,870
Global, telemark.brazil, yeah, Brazil.

1963
01:20:55,810 --> 01:20:58,330
Yeah, the reason I said Brazil is because

1964
01:20:58,330 --> 01:21:01,830
I think Brazil had a huge, I think

1965
01:21:01,830 --> 01:21:04,450
they had millions of home internet routers that

1966
01:21:04,450 --> 01:21:07,230
were of one particular kind that had like

1967
01:21:07,230 --> 01:21:08,950
a horrible flaw in them a few years

1968
01:21:08,950 --> 01:21:09,150
ago.

1969
01:21:09,230 --> 01:21:10,730
Oh, and they're all pwned.

1970
01:21:10,850 --> 01:21:12,950
Yeah, it's like the botnet army of the

1971
01:21:12,950 --> 01:21:13,190
universe.

1972
01:21:13,190 --> 01:21:13,630
Nice.

1973
01:21:14,590 --> 01:21:18,110
Hey, let's thank some people, Dave.

1974
01:21:18,650 --> 01:21:20,470
I heard some boost coming in, which is

1975
01:21:20,470 --> 01:21:20,750
nice.

1976
01:21:20,870 --> 01:21:24,050
We got Chad F with 333 and Dreb

1977
01:21:24,050 --> 01:21:25,870
Scott with 12345.

1978
01:21:27,530 --> 01:21:28,850
12,345 sats.

1979
01:21:29,010 --> 01:21:30,630
Go, Nanaia, podcasting.

1980
01:21:30,730 --> 01:21:31,810
Yes, I'm with you.

1981
01:21:33,270 --> 01:21:35,390
Anonymous from CurioCaster222.

1982
01:21:38,010 --> 01:21:40,130
AI has already ruined V4V music.

1983
01:21:40,750 --> 01:21:41,770
Well, it's ruined all music.

1984
01:21:41,870 --> 01:21:43,250
I mean, has it really ruined music?

1985
01:21:43,990 --> 01:21:46,390
Has it ruined V4V music specifically?

1986
01:21:47,010 --> 01:21:47,450
I don't know.

1987
01:21:47,850 --> 01:21:49,530
I mean, has it ruined music?

1988
01:21:50,450 --> 01:21:52,410
I don't listen to AI stuff.

1989
01:21:52,550 --> 01:21:53,370
Some stuff, I don't know.

1990
01:21:53,390 --> 01:21:54,890
I mean, I think Taylor Swift is basically

1991
01:21:54,890 --> 01:21:55,710
AI anyway.

1992
01:21:56,030 --> 01:21:56,750
Yeah, there you go.

1993
01:21:57,210 --> 01:21:58,790
SaltyCray on 236.

1994
01:21:58,890 --> 01:22:01,210
AI dumbing the world down with one bad

1995
01:22:01,210 --> 01:22:03,150
search and song at a time.

1996
01:22:03,710 --> 01:22:03,970
Yes.

1997
01:22:05,090 --> 01:22:07,850
Chris, you know, 1800 sats.

1998
01:22:08,010 --> 01:22:10,610
Stacker.news is up to 26 different lightning

1999
01:22:10,610 --> 01:22:11,690
wallets you can connect.

2000
01:22:12,130 --> 01:22:15,630
I'd recommend anyone make a free Stacker.news

2001
01:22:15,630 --> 01:22:18,110
account just to look at stacker.news slash

2002
01:22:18,110 --> 01:22:20,130
wallets page, see how many different options are

2003
01:22:20,130 --> 01:22:20,490
out there.

2004
01:22:20,930 --> 01:22:22,890
Would love to see these options in P2

2005
01:22:22,890 --> 01:22:23,830
.0 apps.

2006
01:22:25,730 --> 01:22:26,710
Oh, I have to take a look at

2007
01:22:26,710 --> 01:22:26,970
that.

2008
01:22:28,630 --> 01:22:32,150
Bad signal received from SaltyCray on 777.

2009
01:22:32,490 --> 01:22:34,030
Heard that during the opening of the show,

2010
01:22:34,090 --> 01:22:34,410
I think.

2011
01:22:36,190 --> 01:22:41,210
And anonymous podcast guru user with 408 sats.

2012
01:22:41,210 --> 01:22:41,510
Oh, I love that guy.

2013
01:22:41,690 --> 01:22:42,490
Yeah, he's a good guy.

2014
01:22:43,070 --> 01:22:44,590
Any updates on the wallet stuff?

2015
01:22:44,950 --> 01:22:47,270
The arguing and blaming people is starting to

2016
01:22:47,270 --> 01:22:48,910
turn even more people away or at least

2017
01:22:48,910 --> 01:22:50,830
making them feel like they're doing something wrong

2018
01:22:50,830 --> 01:22:52,710
for using the tools available to them.

2019
01:22:53,950 --> 01:22:55,270
Well, I don't know.

2020
01:22:55,470 --> 01:22:56,830
What's the update?

2021
01:22:58,070 --> 01:22:59,090
Is there any update?

2022
01:23:00,110 --> 01:23:00,590
On what?

2023
01:23:00,730 --> 01:23:02,190
I don't know, on the wallet stuff.

2024
01:23:02,990 --> 01:23:04,550
What is the wallet stuff?

2025
01:23:04,550 --> 01:23:05,130
I'm not sure.

2026
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:05,870
Like, you know.

2027
01:23:06,170 --> 01:23:07,070
Is it my Albi or something?

2028
01:23:07,350 --> 01:23:07,950
I guess.

2029
01:23:07,950 --> 01:23:11,690
I mean, I guess the ongoing KeySend versus

2030
01:23:11,690 --> 01:23:12,670
LNURL.

2031
01:23:12,810 --> 01:23:13,350
I mean, that's.

2032
01:23:14,150 --> 01:23:15,310
Well, I mean, that to me, it's just

2033
01:23:15,310 --> 01:23:15,670
a done.

2034
01:23:15,770 --> 01:23:17,370
It's just that argument's over.

2035
01:23:18,170 --> 01:23:20,070
KeySend's just a redheaded stepchild.

2036
01:23:20,170 --> 01:23:20,950
It's never gonna go.

2037
01:23:21,530 --> 01:23:22,530
Nobody supports it.

2038
01:23:23,770 --> 01:23:26,290
So, I mean, you can't.

2039
01:23:27,270 --> 01:23:30,870
Your massive users are on strike in Cash

2040
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:33,550
App and in those kind of apps.

2041
01:23:33,570 --> 01:23:35,150
And they're just not gonna, they're just never

2042
01:23:35,150 --> 01:23:35,870
gonna support KeySend.

2043
01:23:35,870 --> 01:23:36,170
They're not gonna do KeySend.

2044
01:23:36,170 --> 01:23:37,030
It's just not.

2045
01:23:37,730 --> 01:23:39,650
It doesn't matter what I think about it

2046
01:23:39,650 --> 01:23:40,390
or anybody else.

2047
01:23:40,450 --> 01:23:41,590
It just matters what happens.

2048
01:23:41,710 --> 01:23:43,650
And that's the way the universe is moving.

2049
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:46,310
So, I mean, I'm not blaming anybody.

2050
01:23:46,650 --> 01:23:47,390
No, no.

2051
01:23:47,630 --> 01:23:48,070
Blame anybody.

2052
01:23:48,270 --> 01:23:50,270
It's just the way, just this life.

2053
01:23:51,270 --> 01:23:52,490
I mean, we're not, you know.

2054
01:23:53,570 --> 01:23:55,550
You can't, you just, that's just the way

2055
01:23:55,550 --> 01:23:56,070
it's gotta be.

2056
01:23:56,370 --> 01:23:57,670
So we gotta adapt.

2057
01:23:58,010 --> 01:23:59,330
And I think we got a good spec.

2058
01:23:59,910 --> 01:24:02,810
The Bolt 11 stuff is, LN address works.

2059
01:24:03,530 --> 01:24:05,170
You know, the metadata thing is a problem,

2060
01:24:05,170 --> 01:24:08,490
but, you know, I don't, I'm not convinced

2061
01:24:08,490 --> 01:24:09,810
that we actually need the metadata.

2062
01:24:10,110 --> 01:24:12,910
I'm just not, you know.

2063
01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:14,610
We have, when you send somebody a PayPal,

2064
01:24:16,250 --> 01:24:18,110
you see, a lot of times all you

2065
01:24:18,110 --> 01:24:20,030
see is a little, a short note in

2066
01:24:20,030 --> 01:24:20,450
their name.

2067
01:24:21,850 --> 01:24:22,490
And that's fine.

2068
01:24:22,510 --> 01:24:23,070
And that's fine.

2069
01:24:23,070 --> 01:24:25,090
Because what matters is they gave you money.

2070
01:24:26,050 --> 01:24:27,190
That's the way I see it.

2071
01:24:27,970 --> 01:24:30,610
So, I just, I'm not, if there was

2072
01:24:30,610 --> 01:24:32,550
something more specific you were talking about, you

2073
01:24:32,550 --> 01:24:35,890
know, to respond, but I don't, I just

2074
01:24:35,890 --> 01:24:36,830
think that's where we're at.

2075
01:24:36,890 --> 01:24:39,010
I think that's just, that's the future.

2076
01:24:39,430 --> 01:24:40,930
No, I love cotton gin.

2077
01:24:41,090 --> 01:24:43,170
Apple just controls the podcast index.

2078
01:24:43,270 --> 01:24:44,210
It's just the way it is.

2079
01:24:44,270 --> 01:24:45,410
It's what the universe wants.

2080
01:24:45,510 --> 01:24:46,270
No, they don't.

2081
01:24:46,350 --> 01:24:47,850
So that's patently not true.

2082
01:24:48,430 --> 01:24:48,850
What?

2083
01:24:49,170 --> 01:24:49,910
I don't know.

2084
01:24:50,050 --> 01:24:52,730
This is, they think you're lame.

2085
01:24:53,010 --> 01:24:53,590
You're lame.

2086
01:24:53,690 --> 01:24:54,290
Lame answer.

2087
01:24:54,690 --> 01:24:56,190
You need to support Keysend.

2088
01:24:56,450 --> 01:25:00,070
I can't make Cash App support Keysend, or

2089
01:25:00,070 --> 01:25:01,330
Strike, or Coinbase.

2090
01:25:01,470 --> 01:25:04,050
I can't do, I mean, like, they're just

2091
01:25:04,050 --> 01:25:04,830
not going to do it.

2092
01:25:04,890 --> 01:25:06,050
I don't know what I can do about

2093
01:25:06,050 --> 01:25:06,230
it.

2094
01:25:06,370 --> 01:25:08,230
I mean, okay.

2095
01:25:08,450 --> 01:25:11,290
That's where, I mean, that's where all the,

2096
01:25:12,110 --> 01:25:13,690
most of the Bitcoin is.

2097
01:25:13,930 --> 01:25:15,270
That's literally where the money is.

2098
01:25:15,650 --> 01:25:15,910
Literally.

2099
01:25:16,230 --> 01:25:16,330
Yeah.

2100
01:25:16,910 --> 01:25:17,190
Yeah.

2101
01:25:18,590 --> 01:25:21,170
My entire claim to starting this project, yeah,

2102
01:25:21,170 --> 01:25:21,650
exactly.

2103
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:22,550
And that's what we did.

2104
01:25:22,890 --> 01:25:23,830
We totally did that.

2105
01:25:24,270 --> 01:25:25,710
Apple doesn't control the podcast.

2106
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:27,750
Apple doesn't control podcasting.

2107
01:25:27,910 --> 01:25:31,470
That's exactly why we added the value for

2108
01:25:31,470 --> 01:25:33,890
value because we had programmable money through the

2109
01:25:33,890 --> 01:25:34,510
Lightning Network.

2110
01:25:34,610 --> 01:25:35,330
It was very cool.

2111
01:25:35,870 --> 01:25:37,590
And then Keysend went away, and then the

2112
01:25:37,590 --> 01:25:38,450
wallets went away.

2113
01:25:38,650 --> 01:25:40,930
And so now we have to fish or

2114
01:25:40,930 --> 01:25:41,350
cut bait.

2115
01:25:41,470 --> 01:25:44,330
Either we use LN addresses and everyone is

2116
01:25:44,330 --> 01:25:45,490
happy with it, or we don't.

2117
01:25:46,570 --> 01:25:48,730
Yeah, I mean, Brian on the index this

2118
01:25:48,730 --> 01:25:57,690
week, Brian showed the RPC calls for LND.

2119
01:25:58,730 --> 01:26:01,950
Now, they will not let you send Keysend

2120
01:26:01,950 --> 01:26:04,010
directly through the RPC calls.

2121
01:26:04,630 --> 01:26:05,790
The- Oh, really?

2122
01:26:06,030 --> 01:26:06,950
They're broken.

2123
01:26:07,510 --> 01:26:08,030
Really?

2124
01:26:08,190 --> 01:26:11,230
On LND, they won't let you do that

2125
01:26:11,230 --> 01:26:11,430
anymore?

2126
01:26:11,450 --> 01:26:15,750
On LND, they deprecated the RPC call that

2127
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:18,570
had the pub key in as a destination

2128
01:26:18,570 --> 01:26:19,350
address.

2129
01:26:19,970 --> 01:26:23,490
The new RPC call, Brian of London is

2130
01:26:23,490 --> 01:26:25,450
who I'm talking about, the new RPC call

2131
01:26:25,450 --> 01:26:28,650
in LND that's meant to replace the deprecated

2132
01:26:28,650 --> 01:26:32,090
one does not have a public key property

2133
01:26:32,090 --> 01:26:33,370
in it to send to.

2134
01:26:34,490 --> 01:26:36,950
So whenever that other one, which is marked

2135
01:26:36,950 --> 01:26:39,850
deprecated, whenever that other one goes away, Keysend

2136
01:26:39,850 --> 01:26:40,470
is gone.

2137
01:26:41,250 --> 01:26:42,810
Well, I think what we need to do

2138
01:26:42,810 --> 01:26:45,170
because this pops up all the time, aren't

2139
01:26:45,170 --> 01:26:47,350
you using Keysend to receive these boosts?

2140
01:26:47,410 --> 01:26:48,650
Okay, good.

2141
01:26:48,730 --> 01:26:50,630
I'm going to remove all the Keysend and

2142
01:26:50,630 --> 01:26:53,750
we'll just use LNURL.

2143
01:26:54,030 --> 01:26:54,330
That's fine.

2144
01:26:54,450 --> 01:26:57,950
I really think there's a disconnect going on

2145
01:26:57,950 --> 01:26:58,210
here.

2146
01:26:59,490 --> 01:27:02,890
BitPunk, yes, nobody ever said that it doesn't

2147
01:27:02,890 --> 01:27:05,390
work right now for everything.

2148
01:27:06,430 --> 01:27:16,870
What we're saying, people don't understand, some

2149
01:27:16,870 --> 01:27:18,750
Keysend still works.

2150
01:27:19,650 --> 01:27:21,310
Okay, I'm just going to lay this out.

2151
01:27:21,310 --> 01:27:23,990
This is the truth as far as I

2152
01:27:23,990 --> 01:27:25,230
understand it right this second.

2153
01:27:26,310 --> 01:27:29,650
Some Keysend still works across the board.

2154
01:27:30,950 --> 01:27:35,370
Okay, that is a fact.

2155
01:27:36,490 --> 01:27:40,730
Keysend does not and will never work on

2156
01:27:40,730 --> 01:27:49,370
hosted wallet solutions where most of the easy

2157
01:27:49,370 --> 01:27:51,670
onboarding is like CacheAppStrike, et cetera.

2158
01:27:54,010 --> 01:27:58,190
The deprecation that we were talking about with

2159
01:27:58,190 --> 01:28:03,410
Keysend is one layer removed than what you

2160
01:28:03,410 --> 01:28:03,970
think it is.

2161
01:28:05,470 --> 01:28:10,030
Keysend itself is still supported in LND.

2162
01:28:11,510 --> 01:28:16,830
The API, LND's own API, the RPC calls

2163
01:28:16,830 --> 01:28:26,410
for LND that support Keysend, that has been

2164
01:28:26,410 --> 01:28:27,850
deprecated, okay?

2165
01:28:28,750 --> 01:28:34,070
So the RPC call to send a payment,

2166
01:28:34,910 --> 01:28:37,810
they deprecated version one of that call and

2167
01:28:37,810 --> 01:28:39,250
replaced it with version two.

2168
01:28:40,070 --> 01:28:43,650
Version two does not support a public key

2169
01:28:44,410 --> 01:28:46,970
as the destination address, which is what you

2170
01:28:46,970 --> 01:28:49,330
have to do to send Keysend.

2171
01:28:50,570 --> 01:28:54,270
So the call that supports Keysend in LND

2172
01:28:54,270 --> 01:28:58,890
RPC has been deprecated, even if Keysend itself

2173
01:28:58,890 --> 01:29:00,670
has not been deprecated as a feature.

2174
01:29:01,690 --> 01:29:06,590
Because it doesn't matter if Keysend is still

2175
01:29:06,590 --> 01:29:07,030
in there.

2176
01:29:07,090 --> 01:29:09,330
If you can't get to it, then you

2177
01:29:09,330 --> 01:29:10,230
can't send it.

2178
01:29:11,110 --> 01:29:17,490
And the quote, some guy named Brian, he's

2179
01:29:17,490 --> 01:29:20,610
the guy that's quoted in Lightning Lab's documentation

2180
01:29:20,610 --> 01:29:22,430
about how to send Keysend.

2181
01:29:23,710 --> 01:29:25,430
That's the some guy named Brian.

2182
01:29:25,630 --> 01:29:28,010
They literally used his code as the example

2183
01:29:28,010 --> 01:29:29,590
in their own documentation.

2184
01:29:31,430 --> 01:29:34,110
And if you want a better explanation for

2185
01:29:34,110 --> 01:29:36,130
this, look back on the podcast index social

2186
01:29:36,130 --> 01:29:39,110
from back after the show last week.

2187
01:29:39,850 --> 01:29:43,010
And Brian piped in and gave links to

2188
01:29:43,010 --> 01:29:45,830
the documents showing the deprecated API calls.

2189
01:29:46,990 --> 01:29:49,850
This was discussed right after the show because

2190
01:29:49,850 --> 01:29:53,470
nobody believes that there was a deprecation issue

2191
01:29:53,470 --> 01:29:54,030
going on.

2192
01:29:54,490 --> 01:29:59,010
And the confusion is, it's Lightning Labs.

2193
01:29:59,670 --> 01:30:01,050
Don't blame me, blame them.

2194
01:30:01,590 --> 01:30:04,290
Because they've deprecated the APIs that allow that

2195
01:30:04,290 --> 01:30:06,150
stuff to be sent.

2196
01:30:06,150 --> 01:30:09,650
Now, the marquee tag in HTML is also

2197
01:30:09,650 --> 01:30:12,090
deprecated, but it's still supported by a whole

2198
01:30:12,090 --> 01:30:12,790
bunch of browsers.

2199
01:30:13,890 --> 01:30:17,250
But nobody, but everybody's gonna use CSS animations

2200
01:30:17,250 --> 01:30:19,290
instead of marquee because nobody knows when it's

2201
01:30:19,290 --> 01:30:19,930
gonna go away.

2202
01:30:20,390 --> 01:30:22,210
Because it's officially been deprecated.

2203
01:30:22,390 --> 01:30:25,110
So look, just, I don't know what else

2204
01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:25,550
to say.

2205
01:30:26,770 --> 01:30:28,490
It feels like a losing battle.

2206
01:30:28,590 --> 01:30:30,830
So I don't see why we're gonna continue

2207
01:30:30,830 --> 01:30:31,670
to fight this.

2208
01:30:31,670 --> 01:30:31,990
Yeah.

2209
01:30:32,230 --> 01:30:37,850
Well, I'll switch our feeds to LNURL.

2210
01:30:38,090 --> 01:30:38,910
That's easy.

2211
01:30:39,630 --> 01:30:42,890
And we may not get boosts with metadata,

2212
01:30:43,110 --> 01:30:45,250
but we'll get payments if people still wanna

2213
01:30:45,250 --> 01:30:47,870
send money and support the index.

2214
01:30:47,950 --> 01:30:48,970
So I got no problem with that.

2215
01:30:49,610 --> 01:30:50,770
Look, I don't like it.

2216
01:30:51,290 --> 01:30:52,950
I don't like it.

2217
01:30:53,110 --> 01:30:55,330
I love KeySend, I love the way it

2218
01:30:55,330 --> 01:30:55,690
worked.

2219
01:30:55,870 --> 01:30:56,950
It was so simple.

2220
01:30:57,930 --> 01:31:00,870
But you're shooting the messenger here, man.

2221
01:31:01,310 --> 01:31:03,710
Yeah, exactly.

2222
01:31:05,880 --> 01:31:06,400
Okay.

2223
01:31:07,060 --> 01:31:08,480
Why don't you read some of the last

2224
01:31:08,480 --> 01:31:09,720
boosts we'll ever receive?

2225
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:18,380
The Bruce, the ugly quacking duck, 2222 through

2226
01:31:18,380 --> 01:31:21,300
podcast guru says, love the testing 73.

2227
01:31:21,480 --> 01:31:22,000
Thanks guys.

2228
01:31:23,220 --> 01:31:24,440
You're welcome, Bruce.

2229
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,780
And let's see, we got, oh wait, we

2230
01:31:28,780 --> 01:31:29,980
got Tommy.

2231
01:31:30,100 --> 01:31:30,500
Yeah, here it is.

2232
01:31:30,500 --> 01:31:33,300
Commissioner blogger, 13710 through fountain.

2233
01:31:33,780 --> 01:31:34,860
He says, howdy Dave and Adam.

2234
01:31:35,420 --> 01:31:39,340
Although I'm agnostic now, in childhood I was

2235
01:31:39,340 --> 01:31:42,060
Christian and I even visited the Vatican several

2236
01:31:42,060 --> 01:31:42,500
times.

2237
01:31:42,640 --> 01:31:44,740
And today I want to recommend a podcast

2238
01:31:44,740 --> 01:31:47,400
that can be found by searching for quote

2239
01:31:47,400 --> 01:31:50,720
the Charlie Kirk show unquote in podcast apps

2240
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:53,920
or at www.charliekirk.com.

2241
01:31:54,460 --> 01:31:57,380
After Charlie's murder, new episodes are still being

2242
01:31:57,380 --> 01:31:57,800
published.

2243
01:31:57,800 --> 01:31:59,220
Thanks to Daniel J.

2244
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:00,040
Lewis for the hint.

2245
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:01,540
Yo, CSB.

2246
01:32:02,780 --> 01:32:03,460
Thank you.

2247
01:32:03,580 --> 01:32:05,640
We got some, we got some monthlies.

2248
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:07,240
We got Chris Bernardik, $5.

2249
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:12,580
Michael Kimmerer, $5.33. Dreb Scott, $15.

2250
01:32:13,240 --> 01:32:14,620
Christopher Reimer, $10.

2251
01:32:15,460 --> 01:32:17,240
James Sullivan, $10.

2252
01:32:17,860 --> 01:32:19,180
Cohen Glotzbach, $5.

2253
01:32:19,920 --> 01:32:21,360
Jorge Hernandez, $5.

2254
01:32:21,740 --> 01:32:23,320
And Michael Goggin, $5.

2255
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:24,260
All right.

2256
01:32:24,440 --> 01:32:26,140
Well, thank you all very much for supporting

2257
01:32:26,140 --> 01:32:27,620
the Podcast Index Project.

2258
01:32:28,180 --> 01:32:30,400
It all goes into the funds to keep

2259
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:32,300
this thing rolling and to keep us indeed,

2260
01:32:32,380 --> 01:32:35,420
keep podcasting independent from Apple or anybody else

2261
01:32:35,420 --> 01:32:38,360
for that matter, which is the entire mission.

2262
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:40,180
Go to podcastindex.org.

2263
01:32:40,260 --> 01:32:41,100
You can read our mission.

2264
01:32:41,220 --> 01:32:42,260
It's right there on the homepage.

2265
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:45,240
And below it is a big red donate

2266
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:45,580
button.

2267
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:47,920
We do accept your fiat fund coupons.

2268
01:32:49,840 --> 01:32:51,940
And just hit that button to send us

2269
01:32:51,940 --> 01:32:52,100
some.

2270
01:32:52,740 --> 01:32:54,680
I feel like we're ending on a downer

2271
01:32:54,680 --> 01:32:55,160
here, Dave.

2272
01:32:55,800 --> 01:32:56,320
Man, I know.

2273
01:32:56,440 --> 01:32:59,560
I just want like, the boardroom just went

2274
01:32:59,560 --> 01:33:00,260
nuts.

2275
01:33:00,420 --> 01:33:00,940
Went hostile.

2276
01:33:01,860 --> 01:33:02,860
Hostility, hostility.

2277
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:04,740
We have, what do you call it?

2278
01:33:06,280 --> 01:33:08,180
Activist investors on the board.

2279
01:33:08,780 --> 01:33:10,040
It's a hostile takeover.

2280
01:33:10,160 --> 01:33:10,940
Hostile takeover.

2281
01:33:11,360 --> 01:33:11,960
All right, everybody.

2282
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:15,040
We'll be back with new lightning addresses on

2283
01:33:15,040 --> 01:33:16,100
the Node next week.

2284
01:33:16,260 --> 01:33:17,620
Join us then for the board meeting of

2285
01:33:17,620 --> 01:33:33,700
Podcasting 2.0. I

2286
01:33:33,700 --> 01:33:34,560
think they're cool.

2287
01:33:35,440 --> 01:33:39,480
You have been listening to Podcasting 2.0.

2288
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:43,220
Visit podcastindex.org for more information.

2289
01:33:43,840 --> 01:33:45,160
Go podcasting!

2290
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:48,760
I mean, that is hilarious.